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Forum: VirtualDJ Technical Support

Topic: Windows 11 KB5095093 Allows Relief to The MIDI2 Problems - Page: 1
Moderators Edit
Some of this info is incorrect Pete Brown [m$'s midi guy] replied with corrections.


OP;
For InMusic (Rane, Denon, Numark), Hercules, etc. There is a working solution to 'go back' to the original MIDI.

Maybe this should have been done in the first place...

After update to KB5095093, You'll need to open regedit (admin) and create a new DWORD key...

Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows

Key: UseLegacyMidi
Value: 1
Reboot your machine.

This effectively turns off the MIDI2 service (Manual Trigger) and forces the original MIDI to run. This can be verified by the 'midicheckservice' app as well.

Also, this feature will be in the Windows MIDI app in a month or two.

Cheers!
 
Inviato Mon 29 Jun 26 @ 4:07 pm
 Best Answer
DJJamieFox wrote :
For InMusic (Rane, Denon, Numark), Hercules, etc. There is a working solution to 'go back' to the original MIDI.

Maybe this should have been done in the first place...

After update to KB5095093, You'll need to open regedit (admin) and create a new DWORD key...

Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows

Key: UseLegacyMidi
Value: 1
Reboot your machine.

This effectively turns off the MIDI2 service (Manual Trigger) and forces the original MIDI to run. This can be verified by the 'midicheckservice' app as well.

Also, this feature will be in the Windows MIDI app in a month or two.

Cheers!


Thanks for sharing, but this is missing info and that's the wrong registry location. This is why I tend not to post this stuff all over, and just keep it on the Discord server or our official blog :)

But first, I want to clarity: too much is being labeled as "MIDI2". The service handles all MIDI 2.0 and MIDI 1.0 messaging. The feature is called "Windows MIDI Services", not "MIDI2". MIDI 2.0 is just a small part of the changes we made. We also added full multi-client support, device/port renaming and customization, virtual ports, loopbacks, etc. That all goes away without the service. "MIDI2" was not the cause of most problems you all have seen in these forums.

Anyway, this is the correct location:
`Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32`

And there's more of an explanation on Discord, including which values do what, what you give up by using them, and why we have done this. I hate to see that context lost because otherwise customers are going to ask why *other* features aren't working.

It does much more than turn off the service when used in that mode. It has to deal with a lot of plumbing in the drivers and APIs.

This will eventually make it into the MIDI Settings app as a simple switch. This is specifically to help folks out who are hit with the inMusic driver bug for drivers which may never be fixed, and for folks with the very old Hercules devices which use the deprecated in 2006 DirectMusic APIs. (There are only a handful of those device models).

Finally, `midicheckservice` is no longer needed or useful. That stopped being applicable after April (the same time when the MIDI2 switch in VDJ stopped doing anything), which is why I replaced the links at the top of the page at https://aka.ms/midi

Here's the full post from Discord, minus the formatting and links which don't carry over.

How to change the MIDI API Mode

With the June Week "D" 30 day CFR, we've introduced the ability to roll back to the old MIDI stack in Windows. That means that "seekers" (people who go into Windows Update and loop for updates) will have this feature enabled by the end of July. Others will have it enabled by mid-August. As explained in the information about how CFRs work in ⁠key-release-updates , there's no way for me to tell you if you have it enabled or not.

You must be fully up to date with a healthy system to use this feature. If you have uninstalled any updates or used Vive tool or similar, please repair your PC using the instructions here: ⁠If you have uninstalled updates…

What modes are available?
There are three modes available

Mode 0: Use Windows MIDI Services fully.
This gives you multi-client support, MIDI loopbacks, Network MIDI 2.0, upcoming BLE MIDI 1.0 and 2.0, etc. If MIDI is working fine, and you are using the new multi-client features etc. then stick with this mode. It is the default and recommended mode.

Mode 1: Use only the legacy MIDI mode.
This puts you back in the same mode before Windows MIDI Services. Ports are not multi-client, and the MIDI Service is not used. You will have no access to the new loopbacks, Network MIDI 2.0, or USB MIDI 2.0 devices. This is here primarily for two reasons:

- The inMusic driver bug. inMusic isn't going to be able to fix their driver for lots of DJ controllers and devices that aren't the latest models. If you rely on their devices and drivers, and they are not class-compliant MIDI devices (for example: DJ sets and firewire audio/midi interfaces) then this option eliminates the problem where disconnecting the device while in use will crash MIDI on the PC. There will still be hangs in apps when using these drivers, as there have been in the past. But these can usually be remedied by plugging and unplugging the device.
- Certain very old Hercules DJ controllers which use DirectMusic drivers, deprecated with Windows Vista. This provides an option to still use these devices on a modern PC.

This mode is primarily for DJs who don't need advanced MIDI features, but do need their DJ controller not to lock up the PC if accidentally disconnected.

Mode 2: Hybrid mode.
Use with caution. Devices using MIDI 1.0 drivers are available only through the old APIs. Devices using the new MIDI 2.0 driver are available only through the new API. The two do not see each other at all. This will be confusing for many because the MIDI ports seen are going to depend on the driver used and the API used by an app.

How to change the mode
This will eventually be in the MIDI Settings app. For those who want to try this early and are familiar with how to use regedit, the information is as follows

Location Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32
Registry Value Name: UseLegacyMidi
Registry Value Type: REG_DWORD
Value: one of the above modes: 0, 1, 2

After you make the registry change, you must reboot for it to take effect.

Pete
Microsoft
[ selected best answer by locoDog on Tue 30 Jun 26 @ 7:15 pm ]
Had windows updates blocked for at least 5 years so no problem here.

Nobody who relies on a DJ machine for their income should allow Microsoft to wreck it for them.
 
5 years with no updates? I really hope you don't anything else with that machine... That puts you at extreme risk for hacking etc... I also hope you don't ever use it online, that's asking to get hacked, exploited or viruses. Its not good advice at all to not update.

I don't like the way MS does things so I just deal with it and figure out a solution to it. Have since the DOS days.

I've ran into you before out here and you are always so negative and somewhat a troll... So sad.

Be part of the solution or be part of the problem. Myself, I choose the former.
 
Never had any problems whatsoever. I use the machine online for streaming, web access and with VDJ remote and it's solid as a rock.

Using a MCX8000 for most gigs this Windows mess would have caused me no end of issues (admittedly on the Denon side too for outdated drivers) but hey if you want to let clients down and pander to Microsoft then that's up to you. I'd rather keep things running smoothly to protect my income and give the updates a miss thanks.

Having used Windows for DJ software since 1999 I've been bitten several times so experience and all that.....

I trust Atomix updates as they have a tried and tested method from beta to early access and very little issues make it to the public builds. Can you say the same for Microsoft?

If you do your homework I've been an active member of this community since 2008 so your troll statement is way off the mark....
 
Every update of an OS is a risk you are taking in terms of potential regressions - you just accepted that risk, with the hope that it actually doesn't affect your work.
Updates are supposed to go through stages of verification before it goes out to the masses to minimize the chance of such major fallouts (even Atomix does this, as they at least have their EA channll, Beta channel, and probably even more upstream).
While yes, pausing updates for such a long period for the OS can open you up to security issues, the way you adjust your use to the obvious potential threat (security fixes), can minimize such problems.

His approach is also not uncommon either, standalones pretty much have an embedded OS and whatever extras are needed to run peripherals, that pretty much doesn't see frequent updates, but the idea is that the use is locked down in some sense. Most people also practice a form of it actively - you don't update your OS unless hardware vendors give the okay for devices you depend on.

And let's not forget the gravity of this problem (replacing a stack that is crucial to performance devices with no fallback).

So yes, it's good that you are helping to solve the problem, but that doesn't mean you can't do what you can on your end to avoid the problem, and to remember that this problem should not have happened with such major consequences if they approached the update the right way.
 
I've had no issues this season with my Rane Four and VDJ. I've got 9 weddings and 5 bar-gigs done so far with zero problems. All three laptops running RP insider builds and fully up to date. My issue was with InMusic for not addressing their drivers. I doubt they ever will. InMusic is a company where brands go to die. I see that now. The Four is the only controller I ever bought from InMusic and it will be my last. I was with Pioneer for years and my next one will be from Alpha-Theta.

All that said. This post was intended for those who had not sorted out their problems and would like to go back to the original MIDI and not be trolled for it... This will also work for the old Hercules controllers out there. Yes, as I had said in my OP... They should have done this from the start.
 
Yes I agree. InMusic are rapidly going downhill. This Engine 5 mess is simply unbelievable. I had a Prime Go plus and Rane System one but both were buggy as hell and sold. Support is non existent.

Pioneer FLX10 and the legacy MCX8000 units are fantastic.
 
kradcliffe wrote :
Yes I agree. InMusic are rapidly going downhill. This Engine 5 mess is simply unbelievable. I had a Prime Go plus and Rane System one but both were buggy as hell and sold. Support is non existent.


That's sad... Even the System One? I almost bought one. smh

Try getting on the Rane forum... Crickets...
 
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
Every update of an OS is a risk you are taking in terms of potential regressions - you just accepted that risk, with the hope that it actually doesn't affect your work.
Updates are supposed to go through stages of verification before it goes out to the masses to minimize the chance of such major fallouts (even Atomix does this, as they at least have their EA channll, Beta channel, and probably even more upstream).
While yes, pausing updates for such a long period for the OS can open you up to security issues, the way you adjust your use to the obvious potential threat (security fixes), can minimize such problems.

His approach is also not uncommon either, standalones pretty much have an embedded OS and whatever extras are needed to run peripherals, that pretty much doesn't see frequent updates, but the idea is that the use is locked down in some sense. Most people also practice a form of it actively - you don't update your OS unless hardware vendors give the okay for devices you depend on.

And let's not forget the gravity of this problem (replacing a stack that is crucial to performance devices with no fallback).

So yes, it's good that you are helping to solve the problem, but that doesn't mean you can't do what you can on your end to avoid the problem, and to remember that this problem should not have happened with such major consequences if they approached the update the right way.


Maybe since I am a retired MCSE I see more in Windows... It has been a constant fight since Win 3.1.

My goal has always been to give the best advice I can in IT and share fixes as I test them out on my machines first.

At least now Pete and Gary have seen what happens when an update causes unexpected problems in a segment of users (DJs). At least they allowed us to go back to the original MIDI.
 
DJJamieFox wrote :
At least they allowed us to go back to the original MIDI


Eventually, nearly seven months later - and it seems we're still not fully out of the woods until July/August.

The whole thing wasn't exactly Denon's fault. It was a Windows flaw that allowed their drivers to run in the first place.

Also it hasn't affected just inMusic, but a whole pile of other vendors too - not just DJ stuff either.

Strangely (?) there's no mention of the MIDI 2.0 problems on the Microsoft home page - where you'd expect to find it. No links to help for anyone affected. You'd think it didn't exist.

Even going to the support page and typing in MIDI, just a bunch of results about using MIDI in general.

I did suspect that's why they tucked it away on Discord...

Anyway, my computer here isn't bang up to date either. It actually can't be updated, as when I installed Windows 11 (as an Insider) the PC spec qualified, then MS decided to change the required spec - so officially this PC is not supported. It's left on 24/7 and permanently connected to the internet via 900Mb fibre to my house. I cannot recall the last time this PC (or even previous PCs) was infected or affected by anything dodgy. I think a lot of what's said is just scaremongering to keep you on the latest release/build.

For a long time I had a Mac Mini here, running Windows XP (that was well past its use by date) connected to an external drive and acting as a NAS. That didn't suffer either.
 
groovindj wrote :

Eventually, nearly seven months later - and it seems we're still not fully out of the woods until July/August.


This is out now... That's the only reason I posted it. (KB5095093). Even if your not an Insider...
https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB5095093

July or August is for the MIDI app that will make this easier to do... The registry entries on my OP work if you have the KB installed.

You don't even want to know how many machines I delt with ransomware issues this last year. Everything from Windows servers on down. Don't forget the Linux bug (virus) that compromised root access. No system is immune. I've been into computers since the Apple II days, that is, from the beginning. Even though I retired form IT, I still do side work locally.

Just saying it is bad advice to not update if you are connected to anything. The only exception is IOT Windows versions and 'vault' systems.

I really did not come here to argue but rather offer a solution to those who are still having problems. Maybe it will help them.
 
"Now" is seven months after it started.

It might be OK for you or I to delve into the registry, but not everyone is comfortable doing that kind of stuff, and having to wait 8 months for an easy solution is not exactly a hotfix.
 
groovindj wrote :
"Now" is seven months after it started.

It might be OK for you or I to delve into the registry, but not everyone is comfortable doing that kind of stuff, and having to wait 8 months for an easy solution is not exactly a hotfix.


True enough about the time... This is the current solution at hand until the MIDI app catches up.
 
Apologies as I'm coming to the party late. What is the original MIDI 2 problem itself, because I'm experiencing two:
1. I have an issue with general stability. When my Denon Prime 4+ is plugged into my beast of a laptop, I start up and shut it down with the greatest of care otherwise, it hangs and I have to reboot the machine to have any chance of regaining control.
2. More importantly, if I play music directly from the controller to my speakers, it's crystal clear, but if I play through VirtualDJ through my Prime 4+, there is a definite crackling that I can hear.
I've gotten away with it at the past two gigs, but I'm getting more and more concerned.
 
The hanging thing is caused by the Denon driver, meaning that you should close the software before turning off/removing the hardware. If the h/w is disconnected first, it causes the hang.

Crackling is usually a sign that the ASIO buffer size is too low, but can also be caused by the computer itself not being "audio friendly". Also, depending on the firmware you're using, there have been issues reported by some on the Denon forum. More details there.
 
groovindj wrote :
The hanging thing is caused by the Denon driver, meaning that you should close the software before turning off/removing the hardware. If the h/w is disconnected first, it causes the hang.

Crackling is usually a sign that the ASIO buffer size is too low, but can also be caused by the computer itself not being "audio friendly". Also, depending on the firmware you're using, there have been issues reported by some on the Denon forum. More details there.

Thanks GroovinDJ. I will check it out - I had played around with buffer size amongst other things before repartitioning and installing a completely clean instance of Windows, VDJ and minimal supporting software but was not convinced changing size (increasing or decreasing was having any effect at all).
At one point, I thought changing the PC from performance mode to quiet mode was actually improving the situation, but that proved to be temporary.
Weirdest thing is the laptop was sound as a pound for the previous 18 months without any issues at all. It's only been the last three to six months since the crackling has become noticeable and impactful.
The first few months, you think it's in your head or you, and then after a while it's undeniably a technical issue.

 
DJJamieFox wrote :
For InMusic (Rane, Denon, Numark), Hercules, etc. There is a working solution to 'go back' to the original MIDI.

Maybe this should have been done in the first place...

After update to KB5095093, You'll need to open regedit (admin) and create a new DWORD key...

Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows

Key: UseLegacyMidi
Value: 1
Reboot your machine.

This effectively turns off the MIDI2 service (Manual Trigger) and forces the original MIDI to run. This can be verified by the 'midicheckservice' app as well.

Also, this feature will be in the Windows MIDI app in a month or two.

Cheers!


Thanks for sharing, but this is missing info and that's the wrong registry location. This is why I tend not to post this stuff all over, and just keep it on the Discord server or our official blog :)

But first, I want to clarity: too much is being labeled as "MIDI2". The service handles all MIDI 2.0 and MIDI 1.0 messaging. The feature is called "Windows MIDI Services", not "MIDI2". MIDI 2.0 is just a small part of the changes we made. We also added full multi-client support, device/port renaming and customization, virtual ports, loopbacks, etc. That all goes away without the service. "MIDI2" was not the cause of most problems you all have seen in these forums.

Anyway, this is the correct location:
`Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32`

And there's more of an explanation on Discord, including which values do what, what you give up by using them, and why we have done this. I hate to see that context lost because otherwise customers are going to ask why *other* features aren't working.

It does much more than turn off the service when used in that mode. It has to deal with a lot of plumbing in the drivers and APIs.

This will eventually make it into the MIDI Settings app as a simple switch. This is specifically to help folks out who are hit with the inMusic driver bug for drivers which may never be fixed, and for folks with the very old Hercules devices which use the deprecated in 2006 DirectMusic APIs. (There are only a handful of those device models).

Finally, `midicheckservice` is no longer needed or useful. That stopped being applicable after April (the same time when the MIDI2 switch in VDJ stopped doing anything), which is why I replaced the links at the top of the page at https://aka.ms/midi

Here's the full post from Discord, minus the formatting and links which don't carry over.

How to change the MIDI API Mode

With the June Week "D" 30 day CFR, we've introduced the ability to roll back to the old MIDI stack in Windows. That means that "seekers" (people who go into Windows Update and loop for updates) will have this feature enabled by the end of July. Others will have it enabled by mid-August. As explained in the information about how CFRs work in ⁠key-release-updates , there's no way for me to tell you if you have it enabled or not.

You must be fully up to date with a healthy system to use this feature. If you have uninstalled any updates or used Vive tool or similar, please repair your PC using the instructions here: ⁠If you have uninstalled updates…

What modes are available?
There are three modes available

Mode 0: Use Windows MIDI Services fully.
This gives you multi-client support, MIDI loopbacks, Network MIDI 2.0, upcoming BLE MIDI 1.0 and 2.0, etc. If MIDI is working fine, and you are using the new multi-client features etc. then stick with this mode. It is the default and recommended mode.

Mode 1: Use only the legacy MIDI mode.
This puts you back in the same mode before Windows MIDI Services. Ports are not multi-client, and the MIDI Service is not used. You will have no access to the new loopbacks, Network MIDI 2.0, or USB MIDI 2.0 devices. This is here primarily for two reasons:

- The inMusic driver bug. inMusic isn't going to be able to fix their driver for lots of DJ controllers and devices that aren't the latest models. If you rely on their devices and drivers, and they are not class-compliant MIDI devices (for example: DJ sets and firewire audio/midi interfaces) then this option eliminates the problem where disconnecting the device while in use will crash MIDI on the PC. There will still be hangs in apps when using these drivers, as there have been in the past. But these can usually be remedied by plugging and unplugging the device.
- Certain very old Hercules DJ controllers which use DirectMusic drivers, deprecated with Windows Vista. This provides an option to still use these devices on a modern PC.

This mode is primarily for DJs who don't need advanced MIDI features, but do need their DJ controller not to lock up the PC if accidentally disconnected.

Mode 2: Hybrid mode.
Use with caution. Devices using MIDI 1.0 drivers are available only through the old APIs. Devices using the new MIDI 2.0 driver are available only through the new API. The two do not see each other at all. This will be confusing for many because the MIDI ports seen are going to depend on the driver used and the API used by an app.

How to change the mode
This will eventually be in the MIDI Settings app. For those who want to try this early and are familiar with how to use regedit, the information is as follows

Location Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Drivers32
Registry Value Name: UseLegacyMidi
Registry Value Type: REG_DWORD
Value: one of the above modes: 0, 1, 2

After you make the registry change, you must reboot for it to take effect.

Pete
Microsoft
 
 Selected as best answer
groovindj wrote :
DJJamieFox wrote :
At least they allowed us to go back to the original MIDI


Eventually, nearly seven months later - and it seems we're still not fully out of the woods until July/August.

The whole thing wasn't exactly Denon's fault. It was a Windows flaw that allowed their drivers to run in the first place.

Also it hasn't affected just inMusic, but a whole pile of other vendors too - not just DJ stuff either.

Strangely (?) there's no mention of the MIDI 2.0 problems on the Microsoft home page - where you'd expect to find it. No links to help for anyone affected. You'd think it didn't exist.

Even going to the support page and typing in MIDI, just a bunch of results about using MIDI in general.

I did suspect that's why they tucked it away on Discord...

Anyway, my computer here isn't bang up to date either. It actually can't be updated, as when I installed Windows 11 (as an Insider) the PC spec qualified, then MS decided to change the required spec - so officially this PC is not supported. It's left on 24/7 and permanently connected to the internet via 900Mb fibre to my house. I cannot recall the last time this PC (or even previous PCs) was infected or affected by anything dodgy. I think a lot of what's said is just scaremongering to keep you on the latest release/build.

For a long time I had a Mac Mini here, running Windows XP (that was well past its use by date) connected to an external drive and acting as a NAS. That didn't suffer either.


All the brands with the crashing problem are inMusic (m-audio, RANE, Denon, Akai, etc.) that share common driver code from 20+ years ago.

The reason their driver used to work is it would only crash/hang individual apps because MIDI used to be single-client, and an app had an exclusive lock on the driver. Many found out (and now it's easier to find since we know it's an issue and have looked for it) that they had to disconnect and reconnect their Akai (for example) controller when it was disconnected from their app.

The inMusic driver bug is not something we had any control over. Blaming Microsoft for it is easy for people to do, but it's not even close to accurate.

It's "tucked away" on Discord because it's MUCH easier for me to help people there. Musicians and DJs are a smaller community, and general support nearly never works well for us. They're used to helping people with their printer, not with their DJ controller. So I paid for that Discord server and set it up myself.

I am an engineer, not a support person. The normal approach would be to just tell everyone to wait until the next update. It's not a conspiracy. It's the best way to help customers, and be able to point them to the info they need on that server vs a non-musician trying to understand the problem space.

This is the blog post I kept updated through April when the inMusic driver fixes went out. You'll notice it's on the Microsoft domain. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/windows-music-dev/windows-midi-services-rollout-known-issues-and-workarounds/

Pete
Microsoft
 
DJJamieFox wrote :
groovindj wrote :

Eventually, nearly seven months later - and it seems we're still not fully out of the woods until July/August.


This is out now... That's the only reason I posted it. (KB5095093). Even if your not an Insider...
https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB5095093

July or August is for the MIDI app that will make this easier to do... The registry entries on my OP work if you have the KB installed.
...


This is a 30 day CFR like other features. Just having the KB installed is not enough to have the feature activated. Explanation for all that is on the Discord server.

Pete
Microsoft
 
Pete Brown wrote :
DJJamieFox wrote :
groovindj wrote :

Eventually, nearly seven months later - and it seems we're still not fully out of the woods until July/August.


This is out now... That's the only reason I posted it. (KB5095093). Even if your not an Insider...
https://www.catalog.update.microsoft.com/Search.aspx?q=KB5095093

July or August is for the MIDI app that will make this easier to do... The registry entries on my OP work if you have the KB installed.
...


This is a 30 day CFR like other features. Just having the KB installed is not enough to have the feature activated. Explanation for all that is on the Discord server.

Pete
Microsoft


I stand corrected on the registry entry... Really, for most people, the legacy MIDI is the way to go since it puts us back to where we were prior to February.

You know, BEFORE you do something like this you should have thought of all of us that would get screwed up by it... No, most people don't want to come groveling to the Discord server for answers, those critical answers should be widely published and in places where DJs will see them. Most people don't have any in depth IT knowledge, so they depend on updates that make sense. I share in the frustrations with these other DJs, we make a living with our machines and we depend on them for income. Our machines worked well and without issue prior to February. Yes, this is 7 months too long to wait for answers for a system that worked before you tinkered with it. And the final answer is to give us back the original MIDI? That should have been done in February when MIDI 2 crashed our controllers. Yes, you say the InMusic drivers are flawed. I never saw any evidence of this flaw prior to February, they just worked without issue. Now there is problems with Serato as well... It just never ends dude.

The FINAL answer is you did this to us by forcing this update upon us. Makes me seriously consider buying a Mac for better reliability. We shouldn't have had to spend months finding answers, learning how to use ViVeTool, uninstalling updates and changing registry items.

I do appreciate the 'Disable MIDI 2' VDJ Devs built in. Unfortunately, it doesn't work now because of yet another MS update... It just never ends.
 
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