romeodan
hi everybody
i have some questions about the "experimental" settings like :
experimental skin engine
experimental wave colours
what do they do exactly ?
do they offer any improvement or can they be a cause of problems ?
should i avoid them because they are experimental ?
what were they made for ? lower spec systems ?
thank you
i have some questions about the "experimental" settings like :
experimental skin engine
experimental wave colours
what do they do exactly ?
do they offer any improvement or can they be a cause of problems ?
should i avoid them because they are experimental ?
what were they made for ? lower spec systems ?
thank you
Inviato Tue 26 Feb 19 @ 2:30 pm
Adion
experimentalSkinEngine significantly reduces cpu and gpu power required for updating the program.
This practically means that smooth 60fps skin is possible even on low performance hardware, but even high-performance hardware benefits of course with longer battery life or reduced heat.
It is still experimental because there might still be some graphics artefacts, especially in non-default skins, but it doesn't hurt to try it if you like.
Auto means that it will be activated only when running windows 10 and the default skin, since that has been sufficiently tested now.
By setting it to yes you can use it on older windows versions or other skins as well.
Experimental wave colors uses a new method to calculate the colors based on the different frequencies in the track. It is also still a work in progress, especially on short samples it may not render correctly yet.
This practically means that smooth 60fps skin is possible even on low performance hardware, but even high-performance hardware benefits of course with longer battery life or reduced heat.
It is still experimental because there might still be some graphics artefacts, especially in non-default skins, but it doesn't hurt to try it if you like.
Auto means that it will be activated only when running windows 10 and the default skin, since that has been sufficiently tested now.
By setting it to yes you can use it on older windows versions or other skins as well.
Experimental wave colors uses a new method to calculate the colors based on the different frequencies in the track. It is also still a work in progress, especially on short samples it may not render correctly yet.
Inviato Tue 26 Feb 19 @ 3:02 pm
djdutschi
I have the ExperimentalSkinEngine on Yes.
The FPS set to 80.
As a result, the Paralel Waves do not wriggle like they used to.
But if, for example, I run a visualization (like Milkdrop) on the second monitor, then the waves fidget.
I have to mention that my main monitor has 144Hz, and the second monitor only 60Hz.
And if Visual is running then the FPS is lower.
Then the question, what is the difference between the ExperimentalBeatAnalyser and the normal Analyzer?
And a difference in the presentation when I realize the ExperimentalWaveColor I do not notice ...
The FPS set to 80.
As a result, the Paralel Waves do not wriggle like they used to.
But if, for example, I run a visualization (like Milkdrop) on the second monitor, then the waves fidget.
I have to mention that my main monitor has 144Hz, and the second monitor only 60Hz.
And if Visual is running then the FPS is lower.
Then the question, what is the difference between the ExperimentalBeatAnalyser and the normal Analyzer?
And a difference in the presentation when I realize the ExperimentalWaveColor I do not notice ...
Inviato Tue 26 Feb 19 @ 7:40 pm
Adion
To get high frame rates on windows, you have to use the 64-bit version of VirtualDJ.
experimentalBeatAnalyzer is currently no difference from the regular one, but that might change again if we are working on new improvements for the bpm analyzer.
experimentalBeatAnalyzer is currently no difference from the regular one, but that might change again if we are working on new improvements for the bpm analyzer.
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 5:46 am
djdutschi
No 64bit only run on Win10... I use Win 7...
The high Framerate works , only when I use Milkdrop the the Waves fidget.
My System runs pefect , I have a good Nvidia Gforce 560M GTX with DX11 , 32GB Ram , and Core I7 2200QM , Monitor 1 144HZ 3D Asus , Monitor 2 60HZ AOC...
Why Win 10 , when My Win 7 64Bit runs pefect...
Its Virtual Dj that make the Errors... all other Progs runs on Power..
Also 32Bit programs , and the most Programs have Kompatility on all Systems...
But both runs good 32 and 64 , and they also keeps optimized by the Deflopers..
I use long Time 64Bit Windows 7 with 32bit VDJ . Never Change a running System when You know this better ;-)
Greetings Dani
The high Framerate works , only when I use Milkdrop the the Waves fidget.
My System runs pefect , I have a good Nvidia Gforce 560M GTX with DX11 , 32GB Ram , and Core I7 2200QM , Monitor 1 144HZ 3D Asus , Monitor 2 60HZ AOC...
Why Win 10 , when My Win 7 64Bit runs pefect...
Its Virtual Dj that make the Errors... all other Progs runs on Power..
Also 32Bit programs , and the most Programs have Kompatility on all Systems...
But both runs good 32 and 64 , and they also keeps optimized by the Deflopers..
I use long Time 64Bit Windows 7 with 32bit VDJ . Never Change a running System when You know this better ;-)
Greetings Dani
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 4:06 pm
Don Moir
Yeah Adion gave a BS answer...
First, MilkDrop and ScreenGrab kill your framerate... poor implementations... Take them out of the picture for now so you can gauge what is best for you. When not using either of those, you can better gauge your actual FPS.
I use Win7 also. My thing is to have ultra smooth and ultra consistent display.
Do you have aero turned on? If not choose an aero theme. Aero themes turn DWM on. Win8 and up have it on automatically. When aero (DWM) is on, windows handles the desktop composition. It greatly improves issues with tearing and other things. When aero is off, experimental skin engine does not work, and tearing is likely.
To explain a little bit about monitor refresh rate. Using 60 hz as an example. That means it can refresh the monitor 60 times per second. It can display 60 full frames of video or whatever per second. It can't do more. It can appear to do more though. If you say you want 80 frames per second (more than want the monitor can do), what do you think happens? When new frames come in to be displayed, the old frames, that may not be fully displayed, are thrown away and the new frame starts to display. That won't be smooth will it? In VDJ best you can do with a 60hz monitor is to set the skin and video fps to 60. This comes from me testing this all kinds of ways over years. 30 fps is hard to achieve under DirectX 9 VDJ 32 bit. I know because I spent about a week trying to do it under a variety of circumstances. I did do it and was perfect at a constant 30 FPS using my own code. VDJ 32 cannot do 30 FPS consistently... Not on the machines I have tested it on. These FPS numbers are not some arbitrary thing you set if you are expecting smoothness. VDJ gives you that impression though. For me if I set skin and / or video FPS to 30... I get something like 32/33. Since that is not multiple of 60, choppy behavior occurs... If skin FPS is set to 30, and video FPS set to 60, choppy behavior occurs. If both skin and video set to 60 FPS then it is smooth and consistent unless Milkdrop or screen grab is running. There is also some other VDJ conditions that are bugs that will also drop the frame rate.
In your case, you have 60 and 144 hz monitors... I am not sure what DWM does with that. I think it picks one and syncs to that... Most likely it is picking 60 hz. Try setting the 144hz monitor to 120 or 60 if you can. Set your skin and video FPS to 60. Initially this is all about you getting smoothness... and not really about your 144 hz monitor. Once you can achieve smoothness then you can play around more with the numbers. You can throw all this out the window if you are running Milkdrop when testing this since like I said it kills your frame rate.
Another thing that will kill your FPS is to the click the VDJ button in task bar for the user interface to minimize it. Also the show desktop button. If you click the VDJ minimize button, it does not do kill the frame rate but can still produce choppy behavior... Bugs I reported long ago that they don't seem interested in fixing.
Also you need to be able to check your frame rates and should have something that will show you smoothness for your video display... Videos don't show you that and other things because there is too much noise in them.
For more technical information you can read here. I think I referenced a test you can use there as well to check smoothness and FPS of the video display,
https://www.virtualdj.com/forums/219167/General_Discussion/60fps.html?search=fps&page=1
First, MilkDrop and ScreenGrab kill your framerate... poor implementations... Take them out of the picture for now so you can gauge what is best for you. When not using either of those, you can better gauge your actual FPS.
I use Win7 also. My thing is to have ultra smooth and ultra consistent display.
Do you have aero turned on? If not choose an aero theme. Aero themes turn DWM on. Win8 and up have it on automatically. When aero (DWM) is on, windows handles the desktop composition. It greatly improves issues with tearing and other things. When aero is off, experimental skin engine does not work, and tearing is likely.
To explain a little bit about monitor refresh rate. Using 60 hz as an example. That means it can refresh the monitor 60 times per second. It can display 60 full frames of video or whatever per second. It can't do more. It can appear to do more though. If you say you want 80 frames per second (more than want the monitor can do), what do you think happens? When new frames come in to be displayed, the old frames, that may not be fully displayed, are thrown away and the new frame starts to display. That won't be smooth will it? In VDJ best you can do with a 60hz monitor is to set the skin and video fps to 60. This comes from me testing this all kinds of ways over years. 30 fps is hard to achieve under DirectX 9 VDJ 32 bit. I know because I spent about a week trying to do it under a variety of circumstances. I did do it and was perfect at a constant 30 FPS using my own code. VDJ 32 cannot do 30 FPS consistently... Not on the machines I have tested it on. These FPS numbers are not some arbitrary thing you set if you are expecting smoothness. VDJ gives you that impression though. For me if I set skin and / or video FPS to 30... I get something like 32/33. Since that is not multiple of 60, choppy behavior occurs... If skin FPS is set to 30, and video FPS set to 60, choppy behavior occurs. If both skin and video set to 60 FPS then it is smooth and consistent unless Milkdrop or screen grab is running. There is also some other VDJ conditions that are bugs that will also drop the frame rate.
In your case, you have 60 and 144 hz monitors... I am not sure what DWM does with that. I think it picks one and syncs to that... Most likely it is picking 60 hz. Try setting the 144hz monitor to 120 or 60 if you can. Set your skin and video FPS to 60. Initially this is all about you getting smoothness... and not really about your 144 hz monitor. Once you can achieve smoothness then you can play around more with the numbers. You can throw all this out the window if you are running Milkdrop when testing this since like I said it kills your frame rate.
Another thing that will kill your FPS is to the click the VDJ button in task bar for the user interface to minimize it. Also the show desktop button. If you click the VDJ minimize button, it does not do kill the frame rate but can still produce choppy behavior... Bugs I reported long ago that they don't seem interested in fixing.
Also you need to be able to check your frame rates and should have something that will show you smoothness for your video display... Videos don't show you that and other things because there is too much noise in them.
For more technical information you can read here. I think I referenced a test you can use there as well to check smoothness and FPS of the video display,
https://www.virtualdj.com/forums/219167/General_Discussion/60fps.html?search=fps&page=1
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 5:35 pm
Adion
The 64-bit version uses DirectX 11, which brings improvements to multi-threaded behavior, optimizations in how refreshing only parts of the screen are handled, as well as other performance improvements.
Furthermore from experience, the nVidia drivers (at least on mobile) have much worse performance when running DX9 compared to DX11.
Even playing a simple video without effects it is difficult to get 60fps on both skin and video display, while in DX11 it is no problem.
Using the integrated Intel graphics, it also works smooth, so most likely a difference in the way the drivers handle DX9.
Whether it is worth for you to upgrade to Windows 10 for this or not is up to you.
Furthermore from experience, the nVidia drivers (at least on mobile) have much worse performance when running DX9 compared to DX11.
Even playing a simple video without effects it is difficult to get 60fps on both skin and video display, while in DX11 it is no problem.
Using the integrated Intel graphics, it also works smooth, so most likely a difference in the way the drivers handle DX9.
Whether it is worth for you to upgrade to Windows 10 for this or not is up to you.
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 6:16 pm
djdutschi
I have the latest Nvidea drivers, and DX 11, it also works with Windows 7.
To the fidgeting of the waves in the main skin, if I'm using normal video, it's okay if I use shaders or Live Skin too ... But with other visuals like Milkdrop or visuals from Sounspectrum how G-Force, it gets worse ... But I can also see that the FPS is throttled by the skin also 30FPS when, for example, Milkdrop is running, although 80FPS are set, but in video I have set 30FPS .. I have to add that the video runs smoothly with 30FPS, only the waves in Skin wriggling ...
What I have also tried to change various N-video settings, For example, V-Synk auszuschallten .. (How about this?)
Something else, when I run the Skin FPS down to 30FPS, the Waves fidget sometimes without video ...
So the following setting I have what it also runs better in my experience: Settings SkinFPS to 80, setting video FPS to 30, ExperimentalSkinEngine on on the default skin ... DX11 2GB graphics memory, Nvidea Gforce 560M GTX, WIN 7, 32GB memory, Core I7 2200QM ... So high end ..
Ahh, and latest build VDJ.
Must add all that to video and 3D Games ect. running smoothly, so it's not on my system ;-)
Otherwise Virtual DJ is also running stable, just these little mistakes, which I've posted here in the forum (are there any other things reported here by me, like a bug in the Simple Midi Protocol).
Otherwise continue to do so ;-)
Greetings Dani
To the fidgeting of the waves in the main skin, if I'm using normal video, it's okay if I use shaders or Live Skin too ... But with other visuals like Milkdrop or visuals from Sounspectrum how G-Force, it gets worse ... But I can also see that the FPS is throttled by the skin also 30FPS when, for example, Milkdrop is running, although 80FPS are set, but in video I have set 30FPS .. I have to add that the video runs smoothly with 30FPS, only the waves in Skin wriggling ...
What I have also tried to change various N-video settings, For example, V-Synk auszuschallten .. (How about this?)
Something else, when I run the Skin FPS down to 30FPS, the Waves fidget sometimes without video ...
So the following setting I have what it also runs better in my experience: Settings SkinFPS to 80, setting video FPS to 30, ExperimentalSkinEngine on on the default skin ... DX11 2GB graphics memory, Nvidea Gforce 560M GTX, WIN 7, 32GB memory, Core I7 2200QM ... So high end ..
Ahh, and latest build VDJ.
Must add all that to video and 3D Games ect. running smoothly, so it's not on my system ;-)
Otherwise Virtual DJ is also running stable, just these little mistakes, which I've posted here in the forum (are there any other things reported here by me, like a bug in the Simple Midi Protocol).
Otherwise continue to do so ;-)
Greetings Dani
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 7:37 pm
Don Moir
Adion wrote :
The 64-bit version uses DirectX 11, which brings improvements to multi-threaded behavior, optimizations in how refreshing only parts of the screen are handled, as well as other performance improvements.
Furthermore from experience, the nVidia drivers (at least on mobile) have much worse performance when running DX9 compared to DX11.
Even playing a simple video without effects it is difficult to get 60fps on both skin and video display, while in DX11 it is no problem.
Using the integrated Intel graphics, it also works smooth, so most likely a difference in the way the drivers handle DX9.
Whether it is worth for you to upgrade to Windows 10 for this or not is up to you.
Furthermore from experience, the nVidia drivers (at least on mobile) have much worse performance when running DX9 compared to DX11.
Even playing a simple video without effects it is difficult to get 60fps on both skin and video display, while in DX11 it is no problem.
Using the integrated Intel graphics, it also works smooth, so most likely a difference in the way the drivers handle DX9.
Whether it is worth for you to upgrade to Windows 10 for this or not is up to you.
Well not from my experience... I use Win7 and have test code and TellyVisuals that can use either DX9, DX9EX, or DX11... either 32 or 64 bit... I like DX11 better but about same performance as DX9 on my NVIDIA 1060 .. there is some different but both are perfect smooth. All my DX9 code has been rewritten and is now nearly identical to the DX11 code as far as the drawing is concerned. So if you are comparing different code paths and assuming it is the DX9/DX11 NVIDIA drivers then you can't say that as a global statement.
He had also asked about mismatched monitor refresh rates... Should be more discussion about that.
I don't think MilkDrop works on VDJ64 yet but if it did would probably have the same problems as it does with VDJ 32.
Also, I doubt that arbitrary frame rates work well for smoothness on VDJ64 just like they don't on VDJ 32 but I don't know that yet. That is since he is saying 80 fps which is probably just bogus.
I think he can do a platform upgrade to Win7 that will install DirectX 11.1 which I think it is all that is needed for VDJ 64 since someone had told me it works on Win8.1 with DX11.1. Direct11 wont be enough for VDJ 64.
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 7:43 pm
Don Moir
djdutschi wrote :
I have the latest Nvidea drivers, and DX 11, it also works with Windows 7.
To the fidgeting of the waves in the main skin, if I'm using normal video, it's okay if I use shaders or Live Skin too ... But with other visuals like Milkdrop or visuals from Sounspectrum how G-Force, it gets worse ...
To the fidgeting of the waves in the main skin, if I'm using normal video, it's okay if I use shaders or Live Skin too ... But with other visuals like Milkdrop or visuals from Sounspectrum how G-Force, it gets worse ...
So I guess you did not bother to read what I said or just glanced at it... which is ok if you want to keep beating around the bush. It talks about 30FPS and other FPS problems and you are still messing around with things. I said above that Milkdrop (and other things) will kill your FPS... Why? read it above... also you should try to do all that I mentioned above... or do nothing but complain or make guesses that will get you no where... if you do go thru this we might learn something about your 60 / 144 setup which would be useful... You need to take it one step at a time though. The information is not just something I pulled out of a hat... It comes from a great deal of experimentation over the years... Since there is always a constant movement on hardware and such a variety, there is always something new to learn.
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 7:45 pm
djdutschi
Don Moir wrote :
First, MilkDrop and ScreenGrab kill your framerate... poor implementations... Take them out of the picture for now so you can gauge what is best for you. When not using either of those, you can better gauge your actual FPS.
I use Win7 also. My thing is to have ultra smooth and ultra consistent display.
Do you have aero turned on? If not choose an aero theme. Aero themes turn DWM on. Win8 and up have it on automatically. When aero (DWM) is on, windows handles the desktop composition. It greatly improves issues with tearing and other things. When aero is off, experimental skin engine does not work, and tearing is likely.
To explain a little bit about monitor refresh rate. Using 60 hz as an example. That means it can refresh the monitor 60 times per second. It can display 60 full frames of video or whatever per second. It can't do more. It can appear to do more though. If you say you want 80 frames per second (more than want the monitor can do), what do you think happens? When new frames come in to be displayed, the old frames, that may not be fully displayed, are thrown away and the new frame starts to display. That won't be smooth will it? In VDJ best you can do with a 60hz monitor is to set the skin and video fps to 60. This comes from me testing this all kinds of ways over years. 30 fps is hard to achieve under DirectX 9 VDJ 32 bit. I know because I spent about a week trying to do it under a variety of circumstances. I did do it and was perfect at a constant 30 FPS using my own code. VDJ 32 cannot do 30 FPS consistently... Not on the machines I have tested it on. These FPS numbers are not some arbitrary thing you set if you are expecting smoothness. VDJ gives you that impression though. For me if I set skin and / or video FPS to 30... I get something like 32/33. Since that is not multiple of 60, choppy behavior occurs... If skin FPS is set to 30, and video FPS set to 60, choppy behavior occurs. If both skin and video set to 60 FPS then it is smooth and consistent unless Milkdrop or screen grab is running. There is also some other VDJ conditions that are bugs that will also drop the frame rate.
In your case, you have 60 and 144 hz monitors... I am not sure what DWM does with that. I think it picks one and syncs to that... Most likely it is picking 60 hz. Try setting the 144hz monitor to 120 or 60 if you can. Set your skin and video FPS to 60. Initially this is all about you getting smoothness... and not really about your 144 hz monitor. Once you can achieve smoothness then you can play around more with the numbers. You can throw all this out the window if you are running Milkdrop when testing this since like I said it kills your frame rate.
Another thing that will kill your FPS is to the click the VDJ button in task bar for the user interface to minimize it. Also the show desktop button. If you click the VDJ minimize button, it does not do kill the frame rate but can still produce choppy behavior... Bugs I reported long ago that they don't seem interested in fixing.
Also you need to be able to check your frame rates and should have something that will show you smoothness for your video display... Videos don't show you that and other things because there is too much noise in them.
For more technical information you can read here. I think I referenced a test you can use there as well to check smoothness and FPS of the video display,
https://www.virtualdj.com/forums/219167/General_Discussion/60fps.html?search=fps&page=1
First, MilkDrop and ScreenGrab kill your framerate... poor implementations... Take them out of the picture for now so you can gauge what is best for you. When not using either of those, you can better gauge your actual FPS.
I use Win7 also. My thing is to have ultra smooth and ultra consistent display.
Do you have aero turned on? If not choose an aero theme. Aero themes turn DWM on. Win8 and up have it on automatically. When aero (DWM) is on, windows handles the desktop composition. It greatly improves issues with tearing and other things. When aero is off, experimental skin engine does not work, and tearing is likely.
To explain a little bit about monitor refresh rate. Using 60 hz as an example. That means it can refresh the monitor 60 times per second. It can display 60 full frames of video or whatever per second. It can't do more. It can appear to do more though. If you say you want 80 frames per second (more than want the monitor can do), what do you think happens? When new frames come in to be displayed, the old frames, that may not be fully displayed, are thrown away and the new frame starts to display. That won't be smooth will it? In VDJ best you can do with a 60hz monitor is to set the skin and video fps to 60. This comes from me testing this all kinds of ways over years. 30 fps is hard to achieve under DirectX 9 VDJ 32 bit. I know because I spent about a week trying to do it under a variety of circumstances. I did do it and was perfect at a constant 30 FPS using my own code. VDJ 32 cannot do 30 FPS consistently... Not on the machines I have tested it on. These FPS numbers are not some arbitrary thing you set if you are expecting smoothness. VDJ gives you that impression though. For me if I set skin and / or video FPS to 30... I get something like 32/33. Since that is not multiple of 60, choppy behavior occurs... If skin FPS is set to 30, and video FPS set to 60, choppy behavior occurs. If both skin and video set to 60 FPS then it is smooth and consistent unless Milkdrop or screen grab is running. There is also some other VDJ conditions that are bugs that will also drop the frame rate.
In your case, you have 60 and 144 hz monitors... I am not sure what DWM does with that. I think it picks one and syncs to that... Most likely it is picking 60 hz. Try setting the 144hz monitor to 120 or 60 if you can. Set your skin and video FPS to 60. Initially this is all about you getting smoothness... and not really about your 144 hz monitor. Once you can achieve smoothness then you can play around more with the numbers. You can throw all this out the window if you are running Milkdrop when testing this since like I said it kills your frame rate.
Another thing that will kill your FPS is to the click the VDJ button in task bar for the user interface to minimize it. Also the show desktop button. If you click the VDJ minimize button, it does not do kill the frame rate but can still produce choppy behavior... Bugs I reported long ago that they don't seem interested in fixing.
Also you need to be able to check your frame rates and should have something that will show you smoothness for your video display... Videos don't show you that and other things because there is too much noise in them.
For more technical information you can read here. I think I referenced a test you can use there as well to check smoothness and FPS of the video display,
https://www.virtualdj.com/forums/219167/General_Discussion/60fps.html?search=fps&page=1
Thanks , I take a look tomorrow at these Link ;-)
I dont know why Milkdrop and others kill Framerate .
But anyway, I already realize this myself ..
Aero I always have, it has never disturbed Windows ..
What exactly is DWM, sorry I do not know any abbreviation?
Desktop window manager service, yes?
Ok this is running ..
Whether it has something to do with a monitor has 144Hz and the second Monito only 60Hz, no idea, but I have already thought about it ..
What about V-Sync? What do you know about it, I asked about it in Google and I switched it off, but the error still remained ..
So like I wrote it's just the waves that fidget (stutter), and that bothers mixing, but I like to have visuals mixing sometimes. For DirektX, I have 11 and also the missing of the 9 installed, these are needed by Virtual DJ and Milkdrop ... In addition, I also have visuals of Sounspectrum (Aeon, G-Force and White Cap) if you know them. ..
Of course, the 3d function of Nvidea (3d vision) is switched off, that would disturb ...
Are there any other Nvidea settings which you should consider, I have eigendlich everything optimized for quality ??
Had not noticed your post just now, I only saw the last of Adion, sorry .. And another thing is, I have to translate a lot what you write is not so perfect my english ..
Greetings Dani
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 9:03 pm
Don Moir
djdutschi wrote :
I dont know why Milkdrop and others kill Framerate .
Because it is not well implemented for VDJ. It sits in it's draw code and robs the frame rate in a greedy way. It can also stop everything when it is just selected. On an hhd drive I have seen it last for 10 seconds. On ssd drive about 2 seconds... another bad thing with it's implementation.
djdutschi wrote :
Aero I always have, it has never disturbed Windows ..
What exactly is DWM, sorry I do not know any abbreviation?
Desktop window manager service, yes?
What exactly is DWM, sorry I do not know any abbreviation?
Desktop window manager service, yes?
Yes... it turns on hardware acceleration for the entire display. it is the only thing I know of that has helped with tearing when using a windowed display. I have tried end less times to eliminate tearing completely without aero on. It may work awhile but always comes back. You can eliminate tearing without aero when in hardware fullscreen mode but that's a mess in VDJ. DWM is on with windows 8 and above and don't think you can turn it off like you can in 7. DWM updates the display continuously and it is best if an application can match the frame rate. DWM eliminates tearing very well. Tearing cause raggedness in the display can be horrible but when just playing videos you don't see it as much. If tearing is not a problem then the other problem is choppy behavior. Neither is good... Most don't see tearing anymore because of DWM but choopy behavior still happens when app is not matching refresh rate or is not an exact multiple of it.
djdutschi wrote :
Whether it has something to do with a monitor has 144Hz and the second Monito only 60Hz, no idea, but I have already thought about it ..
I don't know either so lets find out. I suspect it chooses some frame rate and uses that. like 60... To me smoothness is going to suffer. So we need to go thru this one step at a time so we can all know for sure... I have things for you to try.
djdutschi wrote :
What about V-Sync? What do you know about it, I asked about it in Google and I switched it off, but the error still remained ..
To an application V-Sync means the application is going to display it's video or whatever in sync with the monitors refresh rate. It is not going to try and display mid refresh etc. Typically at 60 FPS. If the application / machine cannot keep up with it, then choppy behavior will occur. An application must match it almost exactly for perfect smoothness. VDJ only works well for smoothness from what I have seen with multiple machines when both skin and video FPS are set to the monitors refresh rate. For me both of my monitors are 60hz. So I set the FPS to 60 in VDJ. VDJ32 can't do any other rate, for me at least, smoothly so forget about 30 FPS etc. That is not really VDJs fault because 30 FPS is hard to do under DX9. 60 FPS is still better even if you can get a perfect 30 FPS which VDJ 32 cannot... You can do easy constant 30 FPS under DX9 but that a different story. If you turn V-sync off (aero or DWM off) then you will for sure get tearing and you can see worse performance without aero... Some machines are so weak that they have problems with aero on... Retire those machine to do a less demanding job. When you see someone saying gee I am seeing 95 FPS... just look the other way... I can run things at 1000 FPS... which is fake... not useful when the display can only do 60.
So in order to get questions answered, you need to follow some steps... There are things I would like to know as well. In order to get the correct answers you must not be running Milkdrop or other things that are robbing your frame rate... If we get things so you are perfect smooth, then you can mess with those other things and see what things are causing you a problem... Ok I have said it enough.. You have to start from a low base... That means DON"T be running MD... it needs fixing... don't run the other things that cause you problems... to start with
There is more to come if you want to go thru with it... Not a big deal but it could give all of us some useful information.
PS: I consider Nvidea Gforce 560M GTX to be low end for someone doing video in front of a crowd wanting perfection. M means laptop lower heat version less capable. The M versions of the chips tend to be twice as slow as the desktop versions. The newest NVIDIA 10 series, 1050, 1060,1080, etc have dropped the M designation which is at least a good sign. That means the desktop and laptop versions should perform about the same but heat will still tend to slow things down. Won't help MD much at all.
Inviato Wed 27 Feb 19 @ 9:53 pm
djdutschi
Thank You.
I've just tried the following.
I have as I read your tips have the transparency disabled ... But not Aero, only the transparency.
Then I tried a couple of different combinations with the frame rate.
I came to the following conclusion.
I have now set the FPS of the skin from 80FSS (the skin runs on the 144HZ monitor, I think I forgot), and then I have the FPS of video down to 25FPS set.
And as strange as I think, Milkdrop does not lower the frame rate ;-)
The skin runs with the frame rate up to 80FPS (sometimes goes to 90 95) and video with Milkdrop stays at 25FPS (but runs smoothly).
The waves also run a lot more fluid, only a little stutter them.
Is there a hotkey or command for Windows to turn transparency on and off faster?
Then I found out something else (but I did not have that before).
For skins with a browser window (or even other windows) the windows do not seem to be displayed correctly anymore when the ExperimentalSkinEngine is on.
And when closing the windows are missing parts of the main skin ..
Thank for Helps Dani
I've just tried the following.
I have as I read your tips have the transparency disabled ... But not Aero, only the transparency.
Then I tried a couple of different combinations with the frame rate.
I came to the following conclusion.
I have now set the FPS of the skin from 80FSS (the skin runs on the 144HZ monitor, I think I forgot), and then I have the FPS of video down to 25FPS set.
And as strange as I think, Milkdrop does not lower the frame rate ;-)
The skin runs with the frame rate up to 80FPS (sometimes goes to 90 95) and video with Milkdrop stays at 25FPS (but runs smoothly).
The waves also run a lot more fluid, only a little stutter them.
Is there a hotkey or command for Windows to turn transparency on and off faster?
Then I found out something else (but I did not have that before).
For skins with a browser window (or even other windows) the windows do not seem to be displayed correctly anymore when the ExperimentalSkinEngine is on.
And when closing the windows are missing parts of the main skin ..
Thank for Helps Dani
Inviato Thu 28 Feb 19 @ 1:16 am
Don Moir
Back up a bit...
Not much help if you keep skipping around things... I would like to see if you can get perfect smooth on your mixed monitor setup and what that would take.
I pretty much doubt you are getting that but maybe you don't know what I mean... That is ok but first please do some things.
Milkdrop has enough time at that low FPS to do it's thing... that is why it does not drop the FPS... but at least for me and maybe for you, lets see if we can make it perfect smooth. Meaning there is no jitter or tearing on skin or video and it takes some special things to see it. Your not going to get it with your settings and while running MilkDrop no matter what. Anytime your FPS rates are not matching in VDJ or they are not at the optimal setting you will see stutter on UI with wave display or stutter on video and usually both... That has been my experience with it. Your FPS rate may not be optimal because you set it that way, or MD is running, or for other reasons... I wish more would pay attention to this...
If you are not interested in seeing what perfect smooth is about, we can stop now... My interest is your multiple monitor refresh rates and you had mentioned stutter etc above... both for the skin and video. Really hard to see stutter with a video or MD because of all the noise. We can run test to see what we can get out of your setup, but you seem hell bent on doing your own thing which is fine of course but does not do much to get any real answers. Turning off the transparency setting helps but all the other stuff you did does not.
step 1) You would need to set the video and skin FPS to 60 to start.. Then run a test that I will give you which will tell you about the video display and how smooth it is... If it is not smooth, then we can try some other things that will hopefully make it smooth. When I say perfect, it is perfect.. and it just jumps out at you because it is so smooth. Again MD will break the test.
Your choice if you want to continue.
Not much help if you keep skipping around things... I would like to see if you can get perfect smooth on your mixed monitor setup and what that would take.
I pretty much doubt you are getting that but maybe you don't know what I mean... That is ok but first please do some things.
Milkdrop has enough time at that low FPS to do it's thing... that is why it does not drop the FPS... but at least for me and maybe for you, lets see if we can make it perfect smooth. Meaning there is no jitter or tearing on skin or video and it takes some special things to see it. Your not going to get it with your settings and while running MilkDrop no matter what. Anytime your FPS rates are not matching in VDJ or they are not at the optimal setting you will see stutter on UI with wave display or stutter on video and usually both... That has been my experience with it. Your FPS rate may not be optimal because you set it that way, or MD is running, or for other reasons... I wish more would pay attention to this...
If you are not interested in seeing what perfect smooth is about, we can stop now... My interest is your multiple monitor refresh rates and you had mentioned stutter etc above... both for the skin and video. Really hard to see stutter with a video or MD because of all the noise. We can run test to see what we can get out of your setup, but you seem hell bent on doing your own thing which is fine of course but does not do much to get any real answers. Turning off the transparency setting helps but all the other stuff you did does not.
step 1) You would need to set the video and skin FPS to 60 to start.. Then run a test that I will give you which will tell you about the video display and how smooth it is... If it is not smooth, then we can try some other things that will hopefully make it smooth. When I say perfect, it is perfect.. and it just jumps out at you because it is so smooth. Again MD will break the test.
Your choice if you want to continue.
Inviato Thu 28 Feb 19 @ 1:35 am
djdutschi
Ok, I had already read well and understood what you did ...
Something you have but not understood correctly.
Sorry it is also difficult for me to translate everything English.
So what is not quite true, the video on the screen with 60Hz has never jerked.
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
Then I have to say.
You say I'm doing my own, that's true in part, but I'm just trying a lot of different things until I find the right one.
And so I try these things that I read with you.
For example, switching off transparency will help.
To the thing you write last, put both on 60FPS.
I have already tried this, both at 60, it did not help .. This is my experience.
Even other combinations, both on 80 or both 50, or both on 30 ...
These did not help. Unfortunately.
Only the last thing I wrote, video for the monitor with 60HZ on 25FPS down throttling, that helped ..
So I already wrote that.
And Milkdrop has not throttled the FPS for the skin.
I think your combination is correct, if both monitors have 60Hz ....
But it is so that both are not the same for me, the main monitor for the skin where Virtual DJ is running has 144Hz, even if it runs in the system at 120Hz ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...
And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
Now I've tested something else.
I still increased the resolution of the monitors ...
Did they put on 2715x1527 Dynamic Super Resulution (Nvidea), before it was 1920x1080.
That has also brought something better quality ..
The ExperimentalSkinEngine I have off ... Bring nothing, only makes mistakes ..
V-Synk I have from, has brought nothing, I think that would rather bother ..
So I'm going to sleep now, try on later.
thanks first of all
Something you have but not understood correctly.
Sorry it is also difficult for me to translate everything English.
So what is not quite true, the video on the screen with 60Hz has never jerked.
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
Then I have to say.
You say I'm doing my own, that's true in part, but I'm just trying a lot of different things until I find the right one.
And so I try these things that I read with you.
For example, switching off transparency will help.
To the thing you write last, put both on 60FPS.
I have already tried this, both at 60, it did not help .. This is my experience.
Even other combinations, both on 80 or both 50, or both on 30 ...
These did not help. Unfortunately.
Only the last thing I wrote, video for the monitor with 60HZ on 25FPS down throttling, that helped ..
So I already wrote that.
And Milkdrop has not throttled the FPS for the skin.
I think your combination is correct, if both monitors have 60Hz ....
But it is so that both are not the same for me, the main monitor for the skin where Virtual DJ is running has 144Hz, even if it runs in the system at 120Hz ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...
And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
Now I've tested something else.
I still increased the resolution of the monitors ...
Did they put on 2715x1527 Dynamic Super Resulution (Nvidea), before it was 1920x1080.
That has also brought something better quality ..
The ExperimentalSkinEngine I have off ... Bring nothing, only makes mistakes ..
V-Synk I have from, has brought nothing, I think that would rather bother ..
So I'm going to sleep now, try on later.
thanks first of all
Inviato Thu 28 Feb 19 @ 6:55 am
Don Moir
djdutschi wrote :
So what is not quite true, the video on the screen with 60Hz has never jerked.
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
I mentioned it was hard to tell if a video is playing smooth or not. You can't really go by that. I can't tell if a video is playing smooth unless it is a radical thing. I was going to give you something to test so we could see good numbers that actually mean something.
djdutschi wrote :
I think your combination is correct, if both monitors have 60Hz ....
yes i know. I only mentioned for you to start at 60/60 as a starting point. Then I said it may not be smooth and we could go from there.
djdutschi wrote :
But it is so that both are not the same for me, the main monitor for the skin where Virtual DJ is running has 144Hz, even if it runs in the system at 120Hz ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
Yes and it is the reason I am trying to go thru this... If you just had 2 monitors at 60hz I could care less. We could find out exactly what is up... Not by guessing.
djdutschi wrote :
V-Synk I have from, has brought nothing, I think that would rather bother
So you are lost and that is understandable. I guess you tried that in NVIDIA control panel and came to that conclusion.... Aero is going to force V-Sync.
There is lot more to the story.. There were going to be other steps to take and I just gave you 1 step so we could try and focus. Hard for me to say it all at once here and hard for you to learn it all at once. I can't get you to settle down lol and we can just call it another missed opportunity.
Inviato Thu 28 Feb 19 @ 8:37 am
djdutschi
Don Moir wrote :
I mentioned it was hard to tell if a video is playing smooth or not. You can't really go by that. I can't tell if a video is playing smooth unless it is a radical thing. I was going to give you something to test so we could see good numbers that actually mean something.
yes i know. I only mentioned for you to start at 60/60 as a starting point. Then I said it may not be smooth and we could go from there.
Yes and it is the reason I am trying to go thru this... If you just had 2 monitors at 60hz I could care less. We could find out exactly what is up... Not by guessing.
So you are lost and that is understandable. I guess you tried that in NVIDIA control panel and came to that conclusion.... Aero is going to force V-Sync.
There is lot more to the story.. There were going to be other steps to take and I just gave you 1 step so we could try and focus. Hard for me to say it all at once here and hard for you to learn it all at once. I can't get you to settle down lol and we can just call it another missed opportunity.
djdutschi wrote :
So what is not quite true, the video on the screen with 60Hz has never jerked.
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
Only the Waveforms at the top of the skin fidget whenever video is running on the 60Hz monitor, and as I said it is only for visualizations like Mikdrop, not for normal video .. Ok?
I mentioned it was hard to tell if a video is playing smooth or not. You can't really go by that. I can't tell if a video is playing smooth unless it is a radical thing. I was going to give you something to test so we could see good numbers that actually mean something.
djdutschi wrote :
I think your combination is correct, if both monitors have 60Hz ....
yes i know. I only mentioned for you to start at 60/60 as a starting point. Then I said it may not be smooth and we could go from there.
djdutschi wrote :
But it is so that both are not the same for me, the main monitor for the skin where Virtual DJ is running has 144Hz, even if it runs in the system at 120Hz ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
And the other for video has 60Hz, I wrote ...And I have to say that both are not the same size ..
Yes and it is the reason I am trying to go thru this... If you just had 2 monitors at 60hz I could care less. We could find out exactly what is up... Not by guessing.
djdutschi wrote :
V-Synk I have from, has brought nothing, I think that would rather bother
So you are lost and that is understandable. I guess you tried that in NVIDIA control panel and came to that conclusion.... Aero is going to force V-Sync.
There is lot more to the story.. There were going to be other steps to take and I just gave you 1 step so we could try and focus. Hard for me to say it all at once here and hard for you to learn it all at once. I can't get you to settle down lol and we can just call it another missed opportunity.
Yes , thats rigt , I have V-Sync turn off in Nvidea Control Pannel.
The Aero that also uses, I had not thought of it ....
But that's probably the reason why there is no difference to see if V-Sync is on or off in Nvidea.
This setting does not matter as a matter of principle ...
Could there be other functions that you should switch off or change in the Nvidea Control Panel?
I've put the most on quality ...
Another thing which I consider, even if it has become better at the moment through the settings with the stuttering of the waves ... I see only occasionally from time to time that they shake a bit ...
What I'm thinking is, could it be something else that the waves sometimes do not run clean?
For example, not at all on the graphics ...?
The as I already mentioned, the video visualizations run actually clean, only on the skin on the other monitor, I see that then ...
Sorry for my bad enlish, so sometimes it's bad to explain or understand ...
But I already understood a lot what you have explained to me, you learned a lot again.
And thank you very much.
Greetings Dani
Inviato Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 6:44 am
Don Moir
djdutschi wrote :
Yes , thats rigt , I have V-Sync turn off in Nvidea Control Pannel.
The Aero that also uses, I had not thought of it ....
But that's probably the reason why there is no difference to see if V-Sync is on or off in Nvidea.
This setting does not matter as a matter of principle ...
The Aero that also uses, I had not thought of it ....
But that's probably the reason why there is no difference to see if V-Sync is on or off in Nvidea.
This setting does not matter as a matter of principle ...
Pretty much correct. When aero is on, it goes into some hardware accellerated mode for the entire desktop and you get good V_Sync and I don't believe the setting in NVIDIA control panel has any effect. When aero is off, it is hard to achieve perfect syncing in window mode regardless of any setting in NVIDIA control panel and no matter what the app does. I did all that testing with DX9. I used every vertical sync method that was available for software... It worked to some degree but the tearing always came back in window mode under Win7 DX9. Easy in hardware screen mode though. I can show you what tearing looks like later. aero or DWM is always on with Win8 and above. I like being able to turn aero off in Wn7 for some testing that I do but aero on is much better for display unless you have a weak machine to begin with which you don't.
djdutschi wrote :
Could there be other functions that you should switch off or change in the Nvidea Control Panel?
There could be but try to stay focused on first things first. That will be last thing we try if all else fails.
djdutschi wrote :
Another thing which I consider, even if it has become better at the moment through the settings with the stuttering of the waves ... I see only occasionally from time to time that they shake a bit ...
What I'm thinking is, could it be something else that the waves sometimes do not run clean?
For example, not at all on the graphics ...?
What I'm thinking is, could it be something else that the waves sometimes do not run clean?
For example, not at all on the graphics ...?
When it skips like that most likely is not keeping up with V-Sync. When V-Sync is in effect (not NIVIDIA setting necessarily), the output won't appear on the display until it gets signaled. Internally, the systems waits for the proper time. For a 60hz monitor about every 16.67 ms a display is attempted. That would be 60 FPS. So if you miss one or more of these display cycles, you will start to notice stutter. This is very important to prevent tearing. So what can cause things to get out of sync? In 16.67 milliseconds all the plugins and vdj must have all the graphics composed and ready for output. 16.67 is a very short time in human terms but long enough in computer terms with today's hardware to do some amazing things. 300-400 ms for an eye blink. I am using 2 60 hz monitors as an example to explain things. It is not like your system which we will get to and the only reason I am spending any time with this is because of your setup. You need some background for things to make sense. I said above, that on about 4 machines, 3 desktops, and one laptop with 2 GPUs. I tested all this a lot using VDJ and my own software. I mean a lot :) All these were 60hz setups. Within VDJ only 2 things gave me good smoothness. Both skin and video FPS set to 60 with aero on. Or hardware fullscreen mode with aero on or off. No other FPS setting has worked for me. That means no other setting gave me the smoothness that I want to see. So using 60-60hz as example you don't want to miss that 16.67 interval. This info related to DX9. One would think that 30 FPS would also be smooth... not as smooth as 60 but 30 would be displaying on alternate V-sync signals... Sure that should be smooth right? It makes sense that it should be smooth but there are other factors. I know from testing with 30 FPS that it is not easy given a variety of display conditions with DX9. Exact 30 FPS with DX9 can be done in window mode but not easy. Exact 30 FPS with DX9 is easy in hardware screen mode but stay away from that. When I set 30 FPS for skin or video in VDJ, i see about 32 to 33 actual FPS... That does not cut it for perfect smoothness... You can't measure that with videos or MD and anything with lots of noise in it. Your brain is distracted. So Don, if I can't see the problem than what is the problem? If you have mismatched skin and video FPS, or FPS that is not in line with the actual V-sync then you are most likely going to see stutter... The videos and MD are also experiencing stutter but your brain is telling you otherwise and so it looks smooth. But then you look at the waveform and you see it stutter. It is moving horizontally without any real animation. Your eyes can pick that up easy. You don't expect it to stop and start.. Horizontal movement like that can make smoothness difficult... So with my testing, any FPS that does not match the refresh rate of my monitors in VDJ can cause stutter. Anything that drops the refresh rate away from that like MD, will cause stutter. You should be able to see it easy with the waveform display.
djdutschi wrote :
The as I already mentioned, the video visualizations run actually clean, only on the skin on the other monitor, I see that then ...
It is not visualizations in general, it is MD and a few others hogging the time slice. MD is not actually running perfect smooth either but you can't tell that as I tried to explain above.. To your eyes it looks good but it is causing a drain on everything else. I will eventually give you a test you can run where it will show you this on the video display. You can already see it with the waveform.
For the upcoming do not have MD or anything that may also drop your FPS because then the test will be invalid. There is nothing that can be done with your hardware that will fix MD and the others. The software for them needs to be fixed by whoever is responsible for them.
The other thing about this is you need a benchmark for quality to have any kind of argument. Some might say it is perfect smooth for me and I only use this or that FPS. First off I won't believe it. Maybe it is such that you have seen computer animation for so long your expectations have slipped... When I first started working for animation companies long ago, the smoothness thing is one of the first things I noticed... It bothered me then and bothers me now but now we can achieve it. When we had things flying around you could not tell as much. When the producers wanted to scroll the credits in with all the names it was a different story. We were using far less capable hardware. We came up with ways to mask the imperfections with the limited hardware of the day. My smooth may not be same as your smooth... If you disagree with the above prove it.
I never mean to start out writhing so much... It just happens... djdutschi I am getting to you... It is good you are exploring things but keep in mind the things I have said so far... Your not going to get perfect smooth with varying FPS setting no matter what causes it. I want to see what we can do with your machine and we will have answers. I don;t have the answer to that myself and why I am writing all this... So we can find out.. I just need a break and give you some useful things to do so we can guage what your system is capable of and how windows is handling the mixed hz.and what we can do to make it the best it can be. I mixed up my hz on 2 monitors and it was horrible but that was not a good test.
Inviato Fri 01 Mar 19 @ 8:46 am
Don Moir
Sorry some things came up I had to do... Be back with this soon djdutschi.
Inviato Tue 05 Mar 19 @ 8:03 am
djdutschi
With me is the same, I'll keep on with time on it.
Must do something else first.
Thank Friend for Your Help :-)
I will contact you again.
Must do something else first.
Thank Friend for Your Help :-)
I will contact you again.
Inviato Tue 05 Mar 19 @ 4:27 pm