rrrichieXL
I really am trying to use Virtual DJ as my daily driver... But VDJ has this weird dilemna... one being with scripting/mapping/skin you can make almost anything work like the way you want... But what gives me a big sigh is that so many "default" behaviour of other DJ programs are not default in VDJ.
I've already remapped/scripted/skinned many a work around for a couple of issues, but I really feel the urge just to go back...
Now I'm just rambling, but I think that if VDJ would change some of these it might make it more attractive for other users to switch.
I really like the immense possibilities VDJ has, but I'm just frustrated that I need to spend so much time adjusting/tweaking basic things...
I thought I was almost there, until I used the loop in/out last gig and big surprise that totally doesn't work like any other DJ program I know... luckily the dancers don't notice, but I was not able to do what I wanted. And of course like with so many other things I'm sure I can change it...
Anyways just rambling and Virtual DJ is a great app, but I think it's just not my cup of tea.
A short list...
- many settings/options/screen don't have a cancel or undo, so if you make a typo, click somewhere by accident or delete something it's gone or changed.
- when mapping clicking on a verb to see the explanation changes the verbs in the script itself.
- when clicking the x by accident the mapping is gone, no question asked, but when closing the mapping it does ask you to save changes. Would it really be that much trouble to ask if you want to delete a mapping?
- setting in/out point manually and quantize on, quantizes a doubling of the quantize value and not to the nearest beat. So setting an out point at beat 9 jumps to 16? and at beat 24 to 32? Odd behaviour.
- the beat grid editor, that just remains a strange beast, no undo, so trying to learn is also like arrrrrgh...
- resizing columns is nothing like I have ever seen in any other computer program I have ever used. momentarily adding/removing a column messes up the carefully crafted spacing one just made.
- almost every square inch of the default skin does something, so when playing and using the mouse to select a track or change a effect, before I know it this or that happens... I removed almost all "extra" clicks that can change something on a skin, still not there though and still surprised sometimes how something has changed, when I did not intentionally changed. I know I probably clicked somewhere by accident...
Time for coffee. If you feel like responding, please do, but it's just a ramble so no need to... in any case know that for the list above I have created applescripts, VDJ scripts, spent hours modding the skin, dirty editing of ini files to solve or create workarounds...
I've already remapped/scripted/skinned many a work around for a couple of issues, but I really feel the urge just to go back...
Now I'm just rambling, but I think that if VDJ would change some of these it might make it more attractive for other users to switch.
I really like the immense possibilities VDJ has, but I'm just frustrated that I need to spend so much time adjusting/tweaking basic things...
I thought I was almost there, until I used the loop in/out last gig and big surprise that totally doesn't work like any other DJ program I know... luckily the dancers don't notice, but I was not able to do what I wanted. And of course like with so many other things I'm sure I can change it...
Anyways just rambling and Virtual DJ is a great app, but I think it's just not my cup of tea.
A short list...
- many settings/options/screen don't have a cancel or undo, so if you make a typo, click somewhere by accident or delete something it's gone or changed.
- when mapping clicking on a verb to see the explanation changes the verbs in the script itself.
- when clicking the x by accident the mapping is gone, no question asked, but when closing the mapping it does ask you to save changes. Would it really be that much trouble to ask if you want to delete a mapping?
- setting in/out point manually and quantize on, quantizes a doubling of the quantize value and not to the nearest beat. So setting an out point at beat 9 jumps to 16? and at beat 24 to 32? Odd behaviour.
- the beat grid editor, that just remains a strange beast, no undo, so trying to learn is also like arrrrrgh...
- resizing columns is nothing like I have ever seen in any other computer program I have ever used. momentarily adding/removing a column messes up the carefully crafted spacing one just made.
- almost every square inch of the default skin does something, so when playing and using the mouse to select a track or change a effect, before I know it this or that happens... I removed almost all "extra" clicks that can change something on a skin, still not there though and still surprised sometimes how something has changed, when I did not intentionally changed. I know I probably clicked somewhere by accident...
Time for coffee. If you feel like responding, please do, but it's just a ramble so no need to... in any case know that for the list above I have created applescripts, VDJ scripts, spent hours modding the skin, dirty editing of ini files to solve or create workarounds...
Inviato Tue 19 Sep 23 @ 10:55 am
gvaste
no undo on some critical screens destroys me.
Inviato Tue 19 Sep 23 @ 12:56 pm
wickedmix
No dj software has undo.
Inviato Tue 19 Sep 23 @ 4:40 pm
Mister Tea
These are some valid points IMO.
Undo last change ( even if its limited to only POI editor or cue buttons) would be very very helpful. Doesn't matter if VDJ would be the only application to have this, that's just another plus point.
Resizing columns is a much requested feature. Can only hope this is in the plan somewhere.
Having said that IMO the Dev team have made the right development priority choices since I've been an owner; the software is great.
Undo last change ( even if its limited to only POI editor or cue buttons) would be very very helpful. Doesn't matter if VDJ would be the only application to have this, that's just another plus point.
Resizing columns is a much requested feature. Can only hope this is in the plan somewhere.
Having said that IMO the Dev team have made the right development priority choices since I've been an owner; the software is great.
Inviato Wed 20 Sep 23 @ 8:55 pm
PhantomDeejay
It's one thing to rant about specific issues that you don't like, and a completely different thing to say that VirtualDJ does not follow "standard" behavior.
I don't see any UNDO function on the other 3 Major competitors sofware (Rekordbox/Serato/Traktor) either.
So, I'm sure this is not a "standard" behavior that we don't follow, but a personal wish. (And there are reasons why most (if not all) DJ software don't have undo..
True. However I don't think any other program has a scripting language. And even then, I have seen the same behavior that's present on the script editor on may other apps. It's meant to be an "auto completion" system that helps you find and use the script you want with ease. It's focused around simple scripts that 99% of users would use. Yes, in long and complex scripts it's not that good. But if you have reached a level that you can type a 10 lines long complex script, I'm sure you already know half vdjscrips by heart at this point.
Also, a walk round: Depending on what you're trying to do (edit a mapper or a custom button, e.t.c.) open an extra custom button editor. You can use that extra window to search your verbs that you're goin to use on the main window without worrying about the autocomplete system changing your code.
Actually VirtualDJ was the first application that would allow you to "fix" manual loops. In the most simple form, "smart_loop" as it's called for decades now would correct your loop out point so that the resulting loop would be a "perfect" loop that would not drift over time. This function is still present. It does not use odd timing, yes, but 99% of DJ's don't use odd timing either. Smart_loop will not move the loop to snap to the grid. That's what quantize does.
So, after VirtualDJ had it's "smart_loop" function for years, other software introduced "quantize" where the loop in and loop out points would snap to the nearest point of the grid. Which is great, and also allows for odd timing. Only that it's just a different way. Not a "golden standard"
Why would you need an undo ? You can always reanalyze the track if you really messed things up.
If you just added or deleted a custom beat marker, then go on and delete or reset it again. And I don't think it's any different than other BPM editors I have seen on various apps. Just set a marker on downbeat 1, and then drag the end of 4th shade of gray to the next downbeat. Done!
Again, there's no "golden standard" that VirtualDJ "fails to meet" as you imply..
Browser columns perhaps could use some improvement. However their behavior is nothing but new on the computers world. It's not that VirtualDJ is "unique" on how it shows the columns.
As I said, you're free to rant about what you think is not as you would like.
But claiming that VirtualDJ is not following "standard" ways is a quite different and bold statement.
Finally: There are no "standard" rules. There is not a technical spec sheet somewhere that "forces" a function to work one way or another. And that's part of the beauty. Each DJ application can opt to implement a "function" slightly or even wildly different. And each user can choose which way of doing things fits him better. If we were to had a "sheet" that would force each function to behave with an exact way and didn't allow any deviations/variations, then we would have only ONE DJ software available.
Keep the rant going! :P :)
rrrichieXL wrote :
- many settings/options/screen don't have a cancel or undo, so if you make a typo, click somewhere by accident or delete something it's gone or changed.
I don't see any UNDO function on the other 3 Major competitors sofware (Rekordbox/Serato/Traktor) either.
So, I'm sure this is not a "standard" behavior that we don't follow, but a personal wish. (And there are reasons why most (if not all) DJ software don't have undo..
rrrichieXL wrote :
- when mapping clicking on a verb to see the explanation changes the verbs in the script itself.
True. However I don't think any other program has a scripting language. And even then, I have seen the same behavior that's present on the script editor on may other apps. It's meant to be an "auto completion" system that helps you find and use the script you want with ease. It's focused around simple scripts that 99% of users would use. Yes, in long and complex scripts it's not that good. But if you have reached a level that you can type a 10 lines long complex script, I'm sure you already know half vdjscrips by heart at this point.
Also, a walk round: Depending on what you're trying to do (edit a mapper or a custom button, e.t.c.) open an extra custom button editor. You can use that extra window to search your verbs that you're goin to use on the main window without worrying about the autocomplete system changing your code.
rrrichieXL wrote :
- setting in/out point manually and quantize on, quantizes a doubling of the quantize value and not to the nearest beat. So setting an out point at beat 9 jumps to 16? and at beat 24 to 32? Odd behaviour.
Actually VirtualDJ was the first application that would allow you to "fix" manual loops. In the most simple form, "smart_loop" as it's called for decades now would correct your loop out point so that the resulting loop would be a "perfect" loop that would not drift over time. This function is still present. It does not use odd timing, yes, but 99% of DJ's don't use odd timing either. Smart_loop will not move the loop to snap to the grid. That's what quantize does.
So, after VirtualDJ had it's "smart_loop" function for years, other software introduced "quantize" where the loop in and loop out points would snap to the nearest point of the grid. Which is great, and also allows for odd timing. Only that it's just a different way. Not a "golden standard"
rrrichieXL wrote :
- the beat grid editor, that just remains a strange beast, no undo, so trying to learn is also like arrrrrgh...
Why would you need an undo ? You can always reanalyze the track if you really messed things up.
If you just added or deleted a custom beat marker, then go on and delete or reset it again. And I don't think it's any different than other BPM editors I have seen on various apps. Just set a marker on downbeat 1, and then drag the end of 4th shade of gray to the next downbeat. Done!
Again, there's no "golden standard" that VirtualDJ "fails to meet" as you imply..
rrrichieXL wrote :
- resizing columns is nothing like I have ever seen in any other computer program I have ever used. momentarily adding/removing a column messes up the carefully crafted spacing one just made.
Browser columns perhaps could use some improvement. However their behavior is nothing but new on the computers world. It's not that VirtualDJ is "unique" on how it shows the columns.
As I said, you're free to rant about what you think is not as you would like.
But claiming that VirtualDJ is not following "standard" ways is a quite different and bold statement.
Finally: There are no "standard" rules. There is not a technical spec sheet somewhere that "forces" a function to work one way or another. And that's part of the beauty. Each DJ application can opt to implement a "function" slightly or even wildly different. And each user can choose which way of doing things fits him better. If we were to had a "sheet" that would force each function to behave with an exact way and didn't allow any deviations/variations, then we would have only ONE DJ software available.
Keep the rant going! :P :)
Inviato Thu 21 Sep 23 @ 9:31 am
rrrichieXL
Wauw thanks for the elaborate response, much appreciated...
About the loops, when quantize loop is on, hitting IN does snap to the nearest beat (if that is the global quantize setting) , but hitting OUT doesn't, that seems odd. Wondering if that is a feature or a bug?
About the loops, when quantize loop is on, hitting IN does snap to the nearest beat (if that is the global quantize setting) , but hitting OUT doesn't, that seems odd. Wondering if that is a feature or a bug?
Inviato Thu 28 Sep 23 @ 8:59 pm
christianwheel
There are a lot of great points in this thread and I think OP makes a great point. I love Virtual DJ and it is my daily driver. But those of us who live and breathe in this software need to look beyond our own experiences and not be too defensive about it.
While I agree there's no "standard" in DJing software, Virtual DJ is undoubtedly one of the underdogs in this industry. And OPs point that things behave differently from other software is both accurate and understandable since VDJ does literally SO MUCH MORE.
I think the takeaway here is that Atomix might be able to win over some users from other software by helping to reduce the learning curve in adding presets and skins that make VDJ behave closer to other software. For example, there's this page that gives some great tips about making VDJ behave a bit more like Serato.
But what if the software shipped with all these already put together in a single preset? And when you start the software for the first time, you're asked if you want to use the VDJ defaults, or switch to profiles similar to Serato/Rekordbox/Traktor? That way new users get up and running right away in an environment they're used to, and over time can learn the VDJ way of doing things as they expand their customization options.
That little move could seriously win over a lot of users.
About the undo, while it's true that no other DJ software offers undo, no other DJ software has enough customization to really necessitate it. One of the things that terrifies me is the knowledge that I'm one errant apostrophe away from screwing up my entire workflow. That's the reason I have a million copies of my mappers and scripts saved all over my machine, because I'm so paranoid about breaking something.
As a developer myself, I know how daunting it can be to add undo functionality. Fortunately there are a lot of third party libraries (some even open source) that can be dropped in for fairly simple undo implementations. I just used one myself for an app I'm working on. I hope Atomix will consider adding such functionality because it would really be a great safety net and would ease off some of the stress of scripting. Personally I can say I don't script as much as I would like to out of fear of breaking something I rely on (despite having a thousand different backups).
In any case, thank you OP for your observations, they are certainly valid. VDJ is the most powerful piece of DJing software available and you can basically make it do whatever you want, but the default behaviors are not always what the average DJ might expect. If that was addressed it might make adoption a bit smoother for some and encourage sales.
While I agree there's no "standard" in DJing software, Virtual DJ is undoubtedly one of the underdogs in this industry. And OPs point that things behave differently from other software is both accurate and understandable since VDJ does literally SO MUCH MORE.
I think the takeaway here is that Atomix might be able to win over some users from other software by helping to reduce the learning curve in adding presets and skins that make VDJ behave closer to other software. For example, there's this page that gives some great tips about making VDJ behave a bit more like Serato.
But what if the software shipped with all these already put together in a single preset? And when you start the software for the first time, you're asked if you want to use the VDJ defaults, or switch to profiles similar to Serato/Rekordbox/Traktor? That way new users get up and running right away in an environment they're used to, and over time can learn the VDJ way of doing things as they expand their customization options.
That little move could seriously win over a lot of users.
About the undo, while it's true that no other DJ software offers undo, no other DJ software has enough customization to really necessitate it. One of the things that terrifies me is the knowledge that I'm one errant apostrophe away from screwing up my entire workflow. That's the reason I have a million copies of my mappers and scripts saved all over my machine, because I'm so paranoid about breaking something.
As a developer myself, I know how daunting it can be to add undo functionality. Fortunately there are a lot of third party libraries (some even open source) that can be dropped in for fairly simple undo implementations. I just used one myself for an app I'm working on. I hope Atomix will consider adding such functionality because it would really be a great safety net and would ease off some of the stress of scripting. Personally I can say I don't script as much as I would like to out of fear of breaking something I rely on (despite having a thousand different backups).
In any case, thank you OP for your observations, they are certainly valid. VDJ is the most powerful piece of DJing software available and you can basically make it do whatever you want, but the default behaviors are not always what the average DJ might expect. If that was addressed it might make adoption a bit smoother for some and encourage sales.
Inviato Fri 29 Sep 23 @ 11:00 pm
IIDEEJAYII
christianwheel wrote :
....About the undo, while it's true that no other DJ software offers undo, no other DJ software has enough customization to really necessitate it. One of the things that terrifies me is the knowledge that I'm one errant apostrophe away from screwing up my entire workflow. That's the reason I have a million copies of my mappers and scripts saved all over my machine, because I'm so paranoid about breaking something.
As a developer myself, I know how daunting it can be to add undo functionality. Fortunately there are a lot of third party libraries (some even open source) that can be dropped in for fairly simple undo implementations. I just used one myself for an app I'm working on. I hope Atomix will consider adding such functionality because it would really be a great safety net and would ease off some of the stress of scripting.....
As a developer myself, I know how daunting it can be to add undo functionality. Fortunately there are a lot of third party libraries (some even open source) that can be dropped in for fairly simple undo implementations. I just used one myself for an app I'm working on. I hope Atomix will consider adding such functionality because it would really be a great safety net and would ease off some of the stress of scripting.....
Great news the Undo (ctrl-z ctrl-y ) feature, has been added, with little fan fare .. in the EA 7689 update.
even cool in the Tag Editor.
And the usual padpage editing.. need to shift away from pad and back, to get the change accepted, then the undo engages.
Thank you Devs for this awesome feature !
wickedmix wrote :
No dj software has undo.
Yes and now VDJ is the first, as always ! !
Inviato Sun 01 Oct 23 @ 9:20 am
Mister Tea
Great news! A much needed safety net IMO. Strange that there was no mention of the undo feature in the changelog though.
"BUILD 7689 (2023-09-24)
-Some fixes for Pioneer DDJ-REV5
-Fixes for auto_bpm_transition
-Export playlist for filter folder or virtual folder has option to include subfolders when exporting to txt/html
-Fix recording at wrong samplerate if first recording mp3 and then recording mp4"
"BUILD 7689 (2023-09-24)
-Some fixes for Pioneer DDJ-REV5
-Fixes for auto_bpm_transition
-Export playlist for filter folder or virtual folder has option to include subfolders when exporting to txt/html
-Fix recording at wrong samplerate if first recording mp3 and then recording mp4"
Inviato Sun 01 Oct 23 @ 1:18 pm
locoDog
it's only typing that it undoes, not really a banner feature just something basic that was overlooked.
Inviato Sun 01 Oct 23 @ 1:36 pm
gvaste
locodog wrote :
it's only typing that it undoes, not really a banner feature just something basic that was overlooked.
thanks for the implementation!
Inviato Sun 01 Oct 23 @ 9:47 pm