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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: Pioneer acquisition of Serato denied - Page: 1
The Pioneer acquisition of Serato has been denied. Here is Mojaxx's take on it:
https://youtube.com/shorts/uCuQv2D8qPM?si=aUrypDoYtIayJpTH

What do you think comes next?
Will they appeal the decision?
Or will Serato just continue like nothing happened?
Or will they try to sell themselves to someone else? (Atomix, do you happen to have 100 million dollars laying around 🙂 )
Does anyone have any insights?
 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 6:33 am
Maybe they should buy Traktor ..... what a disappointing new update...
 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 8:57 am
Why disappointing?

OK the flexible grids are no better than what we have in VDJ (markers have to be added manually) and the stem separation isn't on-the-fly (you have to save them to a file and it's very slow) but the browser flickering has been fixed!

Apparently the flickering started in 2011, so that's a mere 13 year wait.
 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 9:21 am
And still no Retina display support..
 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 10:09 am
I'm surprised this didn't set the forums on fire immediately when the news came out yesterday.

To me the attempted acquisition was bound to be denied based on where it left hardware partners wrt any competitive advantage.

AlphaTheta may appeal but I don't see any immediate change of decision happening.
If Serato is really that strained cashwise, another player may step in to scoop them up (a player not considered to result in ultimate dominance by the acquisition), or they may change to a different revenue model (i.e. subscription being the only way). If not, the status quo will proceed.

It's a bit too early to tell though.

WRT Traktor the flexible beatgrids is what I thought it would be (regular industry standard, not dynamic), but it's a bit surprising they didn't have the stem separation truly on the fly (maybe they didn't want to force high spec machine requirements?). They also cancelled their subscription model, which is interesting and different from the current trend.
 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 11:07 am
groovindj wrote :
Why disappointing?

OK the flexible grids are no better than what we have in VDJ (markers have to be added manually) and the stem separation isn't on-the-fly (you have to save them to a file and it's very slow) but the browser flickering has been fixed!

Apparently the flickering started in 2011, so that's a mere 13 year wait.


Let's see....

My M1 Mac Roughly 2 mins per song to use stems

No way to decode multiple songs at once

Can't decode stems on the fly

This is a standard feature in every other software.


$79 for me to update (at least there's no subscription cost)
Can't confirm if they have fixed the flickering
No retina support


A few other things that may be petty to most

I started laptop djing in 2001 with Traktor I still have the original software disc (wish I still had the original scratch amp) It was great software for the time but they are slow to innovate I Moved over to VDJ in 2010 because I needed to mix music videos . Traktor still doesn't do video .

 

Inviato Thu 18 Jul 24 @ 9:05 pm
Just a small add to this:

Native Instruments did end up adding the Isotope Ozone Maximizer into Traktor in the new version 4.

I know that there have been many discussions on this over here and I do agree that maximization is distorting the original sound, but having the option built in gives more flexibility to us, especially when working back to back with users of other software, and it also means we don't have to depend on third party implementations (something that can always disappear/perhaps stop working due to lack of updates in the future depending on the project) - it seems NI saw enough value in that to include it.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 12:03 am
My personal take:

If you come into my club and you use a maximizer, I will NOT try to compete with you (in loudness)
Instead, I will ask you to turn your volume down.
Loudness IS NOT an acceptable field of competition for me, especially since the club's PA can easily become illegal to use due to high SPL.

Generally speaking DJ's have a bad reputation when it comes to touring sound (big PA systems) because of 2 reasons:
1) Redlining, and
2) Maximizing/Compressing/Overcompressing their sound.

A sound engineer in a big PA wants a clear uncompressed signal. Then, it's up to him to add compression IF needed and tweak it's parameters (threshold, ratio, knee, attack/release times e.t.c.) according to the given system and the application/venue.

I'm not against compression, when it's used right!
But on most cases it's NOT.

People in the past have accused VirtualDJ for "bad" sound because of the built-in limiter that you cannot bypass.
Of course, in a properly tweaked system, a user should almost never hit the limiter. But that was not the case for a lot of users.
And yes we spent countless hours explaining to our users WHY they should not hit the limiter, and how the limiter was not the problem, but the way they used the software was.

Same thing will happen with Traktor.
Once your "average" amateur DJ crank up the "maximizer" and "everything screams" constantly, Traktor will have to deal with the same BS. "Traktor has bad sound" will become a thing.. Not because of the sound, but because the average user does not understand when and why he should use the damn maximizer.

So, be my guest Traktor, welcome to the "bad sound" world!

PS: As I said, this is my PERSONAL take on this, and it does not represent the position of Atomix Inc. in ANY way.

PS2: I have used one or two versions of iZotope Ozone mastering suite in the past as a post production tool.
I know it can work wonders. But for me, while it's one of the best tools for post production, it's one of the most dangerous tools for real time usage.
In post, you can hear and compare the results, and tweak it, to produce the desired result.
In real-time, it's VERY EASY to produce unwanted results. So, while I could probably run all of my recordings through Ozone for post processing, I would never use it as a real time VST effect on my master output, outside of a controlled environment.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 10:09 am
@PhantomDeejay I agree with and respect that take - I don't like messing with the original signal either but it's clear that most DJs have been biased towards the sound coloring, and are probably not even aware of it happening due to the status quo.

I honestly don't know where the decision in DJ software to maximize the sound before master output came from - it does seem contrary to having clean audio output. I also don't understand the argument against the VirtualDJ limiter as it's there for protection and doesn't add to the sound.

However, the harder part is convincing DJs/club engineers to adjust their volume settings, especially if the PA has already been tuned by the engineer to a particular software's output level. If you are a headliner/big name DJ, it's an easier thing to make happen, but if you are just the average person playing there, you'll almost always get a negative response/pushback from somebody higher up the chain. So we are given to cranking up the volume somewhere in the chain where we control, and DJs/Engineers seem to get scared when they see gains being increased (the DJ before wonders why, the DJ after (if the mixer was left as is and they actually didn't pay attention to the output) thinks "this guy is an idiot because he was probably redlining"). Currently I would instead just use the zeroDB to turn down the output a bit then use the maximizer VST on the master to bring it to a similar level output to remove that manual adjustment need and avoid misunderstanding by the other "professionals" - it's a sad thing but really a case of when in Rome.

If I'm the only person playing (e.g. a wedding or mobile gig), I'd never mess with the original signal, but I have all the control there.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 11:38 am
I can see where it's a no no for clubs, but for mobile DJs sometimes an "adjustment" is needed.

For example I have a Bose F1 system that is fed from my MCX8000 main XLR output to the tops and the booth XLR output to the subs all flat and it's perfect.

However if I work for one of the local companies now and again they put out an ancient rig that's flat as a pancake, so I use the bass and treble adjustment on the MCX8000 booth output to boost the sound a bit as it is absolutely terrible in it's raw form.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 11:42 am
kradcliffe wrote :
I can see where it's a no no for clubs, but for mobile DJs sometimes an "adjustment" is needed.

For example I have a Bose F1 system that is fed from my MCX8000 main XLR output to the tops and the booth XLR output to the subs all flat and it's perfect.

However if I work for one of the local companies now and again they put out an ancient rig that's flat as a pancake, so I use the bass and treble adjustment on the MCX8000 booth output to boost the sound a bit as it is absolutely terrible in it's raw form.


For that I would use a master FX
Like with Loudmax:

... but I think it's fine that people have to work a bit to get it, so they don't just set something the first time they open VDJ, and then get bad/compressed sound forever :)
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 11:47 am
@klaus for maximizer VST setting I also use loudmax based off your suggestion as well.

For the settings I used, I originally started with a suggestion that another member had goven on this forum that had worked well for them, and to confirm I just ended up recording master output of an already analyzed track from Serato (using the default autogain level setting because virtually no Serato DJ changes it in my area) using one of my controllers, then doing the same dump using the same settings on the controller, through VirtualDJ and the maximizer, and then roughly comparing the two using LUFS-I measurement tool like Voxengo Span in a DAW (don't care to be perfect, just close enough to not be immediately recognizable).
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 12:03 pm
Haha, I was just about to make a post on this subject... :-)

We often see posts from people mentioning how old tracks sound quieter than new ones, and asking what they can do about it.

I'd suggest it's probably better to run those tracks through a compressor rather than a maximizer.

In simple terms a compressor will boost the quieter parts and lower the loud parts, whereas a maximizer just "chops the top off" the waveform.

Maybe have a compressor in a slot on each deck, that can be enabled when required, then LoudMax on the output as a safety.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 12:07 pm
DJ VinylTouch wrote :
However, the harder part is convincing DJs/club engineers to adjust their volume settings, especially if the PA has already been tuned by the engineer to a particular software's output level.

That's a HUGE misconception..
Software does not produce an electrical signal to feed a console that feeds the PA.
The sound interface/audio mixer does that.
Yes, different software may force a sound interface to produce a "louder" or "more quiet" sound signal, but the differences are small, and they are usually taken into account by the sound engineer.

Since I worked a lot in that field (and some times I still do) let me explain something:
Let's take a "typical" club setup. What we care about here, is the mixer.
So, let's say that we have a DJM-900NSX2 mixer (or a DJM-A9)
Your sound engineer, will configure the sound like this:
1) Green leds on the mixer: Mostly unprocessed dynamics. There will be a gate of course with low threshold, and maybe a very light compression (1.2/1) starting at -20db, to "ease" the next compression setting (kind of a soft knee for the next hard step)
2) 0db to +6/+9 db on DJM output: Heavy compression (somewhere between 4 to 1 and 10 to 1)
3) +6/+9db and above: Brickwall limiter

This means that your audio engineer has left plenty of room for you to "correct" yourself, and that small differences in output (sometimes up to 6db difference) do not really matter.
Also it means that no matter how hard you push the mixer, from a point onwards you are NOT going to take any more volume out of it.
From a theoretical point of view, you should earn some loudness by hitting the limiter hard, but from a practical stand point, since the sound has deteriorated that much, you actually loose clarity and therefore perceived loudness.

What is different between different software (and different gear) is the sound colorization which is irrelevant of volume.
So, each gear (CDJ, DJM, sound interface, even turntable cartridge) has a different sound color signature.
Sound engineers try to setup sound systems with a "FLAT" source device in mind, but that's not always the case, or possible, or desired. So, in reality any REAL difference between different DJ's rotating the same booth, comes from the colorization of their gear and/or software. Not from their playback volume.

And to be fair, that's where iZotope Ozone suite (as a mastering suite) really shines. In "colorizing" and "mastering" a mix. Not just in "maximizing" it's volume.
That's why I said I would use it in post, but not in real time.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 12:25 pm
PhantomDeejay wrote :

That's a HUGE misconception..
Software does not produce an electrical signal to feed a console that feeds the PA.
The sound interface/audio mixer does that.


So I wasn't disputing this at all - I agree my line is imprecise. The signal does come from the audio interface at the end of the day, but the interface doea act on signals coming into it from somewhere else (the software in this case), which itself can be at different levels, so it is a combination (source level + mixer levels) that produces the resulting level.

You did also say this below:

PhantomDeejay wrote :

Yes, different software may force a sound interface to produce a "louder" or "more quiet" sound signal, but the differences are small, and they are usually taken into account by the sound engineer.


This is what I was getting at - to me the difference can be very significant, especially when headroom adjustment comes into play. What I'm also getting at though, is that it's hard to adjust VirtualDJ + the mixer, to give a similar output to other software based on the result coming from the DJ mixer - the maximization/coloring almost always results in a punchier sound at that point (at least when I try).

Giving headroom does allow for you to adjust the levels, but that is still another manual step that doesn't quite achieve the same output levels as what you would get from other software (as I stated before), based on the maximizing/colorization we already eatablished is happening. In addition, some DJs and Engineers look at this manual adjustment negatively (surprising I know) because they have a set it and forget it mentality and might even snicker at someone putting out something different from what they usually see.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 1:00 pm
I think you didn't understand the point I was trying to make :P

At the end of the day, it DOESN'T MATTER if one software / sound interface / cdj / turntable cartidge / mixer produces anywhere to +/-6db from another source.
It doesn't matter because:
1) That's why we have gain knobs
2) That's why a "master volume" knob exists, and
3) The compressors and other DSP running at the signal chain will almost always smash any "difference" higher than unity gain (0db) AFTER it leaves your mixer.

So, the only real difference, is colorization!
Colorization (punchier sound) is another thing.
When people say "punchier" as an example, usually mean more bass on the lower end. And that's not "dynamics" (loudness)
Whether or not it's good or desired for a playback source to colorize the sound, is a separate debate of it's own!
Anyway, there's no point to keep this discussion going on this thread that's not about DSP, nor about Traktor as well! :P
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 1:19 pm
@phantomdeejay I understand what you said fully, but it doesn't seem like you are trying to understand what I'm saying:

The mere act of gain/master knob adjustment gets to some groups, especially when sharing equipment with others, and some people like a set it and forget it remedy 🤷🏾‍♂️.

If you don't see the value in it that's ok...the addition not a requirement and I'm happy with how VirtualDJ works currently.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 2:04 pm
How are you supposed to operate in a venue if you never touch the "master volume" knob of the main mixer?
I'm pretty sure that you don't play at the same SPL levels all the time, from opening to closure.
I'm pretty sure that during warm up (or let's say during the opening act) the overall SPL is lower.
Then on the main program (or the headliner DJ) the SPL goes as high as it gets within the system limits (and possibly within legal limits) and finally,
Before closing the SPL drops down again.
Even if the SPL doesn't drop down before the closing act, how do you control SPL if you're not supposed to touch the "master volume" knob ? :P

Ooooh, and before you reply "you keep the channel volume faders lower" that's also unacceptable on many cases :P
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 3:12 pm
@PhantomDeejay don't get me wrong, I'm on your side wrt what I believe the right thing to do is (deck gain/master volume adjustment).

The problem is there could be politics involved depending on venue/DJs you are playing with, which could unfortunately even affect if you get a call back or not - some venues even try to force other software on you depending.
In the cases where I think manual adjustment may get negative perception (mostly from DJs using other software), I use the master VST option to keep their wondering eyes happy. When I don't think it's an issue, I will do the proper gain staging at the mixer level and not mess with any mastering effects. Having the option helps thought.
 

Inviato Mon 22 Jul 24 @ 3:36 pm
I'm not arguing.
I'm genuinely curious as to how a place that has such a (stupid) policy controls SPL
 

Inviato Tue 23 Jul 24 @ 6:17 am
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