Porky2005
Hi guys,
Thanks for reading my thread.
I have recently downloaded the trial version of Virtual DJ as I have a friend who uses the program with his decks. I am completely confused about the purpose of time coded vinyls and why they are necessary for use with the program other than for "visual effect":
As I understand, the user mounts an mp3 onto each deck and the computer can calculate its bpm to within a few 1/100ths of a beat per minute. It can also line the beats up and any glitches can be adjusted for by using the map beat tapping functions and correcting the "computed beat grid". The time coded vinyls sit on top of some decks, and I would assume that I am supposed to use them to find cue points and move through the position in a song. Surely this is the equivalent of clicking the decks with the mouse button and moving the virtual deck around...
As you can see Im slightly confused!! I dont understand why someone would want to get time coded vinyls to put on their turntables if they are interfacing with a computer program that can do nearly everything for them...could someone explain for me please - I feel I have missed something important!!
Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer me,
Regards,
Paul
Thanks for reading my thread.
I have recently downloaded the trial version of Virtual DJ as I have a friend who uses the program with his decks. I am completely confused about the purpose of time coded vinyls and why they are necessary for use with the program other than for "visual effect":
As I understand, the user mounts an mp3 onto each deck and the computer can calculate its bpm to within a few 1/100ths of a beat per minute. It can also line the beats up and any glitches can be adjusted for by using the map beat tapping functions and correcting the "computed beat grid". The time coded vinyls sit on top of some decks, and I would assume that I am supposed to use them to find cue points and move through the position in a song. Surely this is the equivalent of clicking the decks with the mouse button and moving the virtual deck around...
As you can see Im slightly confused!! I dont understand why someone would want to get time coded vinyls to put on their turntables if they are interfacing with a computer program that can do nearly everything for them...could someone explain for me please - I feel I have missed something important!!
Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer me,
Regards,
Paul
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 4:36 pm
sbangs
you scratch the ynal the computer reacts
you change the speed , the computer does ,
you stop the ynal or start it the computer does
if you put the needle halfway over the ynal of any other part , the song starts from that point
they are awsome strongly recommend, u need a pro copy tho.
you change the speed , the computer does ,
you stop the ynal or start it the computer does
if you put the needle halfway over the ynal of any other part , the song starts from that point
they are awsome strongly recommend, u need a pro copy tho.
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 4:47 pm
Porky2005
Thanks for the speedy reply Sky.
I understand that thats what the vinyls can do - but my point/question is that the Virtual DJ can do all of the things that you mention (and more) without having the decks or the vinyls...so I dont understand why they are necessary...see what I mean?
Thanks again,
P
I understand that thats what the vinyls can do - but my point/question is that the Virtual DJ can do all of the things that you mention (and more) without having the decks or the vinyls...so I dont understand why they are necessary...see what I mean?
Thanks again,
P
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 4:52 pm
xeon
you can do everything with mouse and keyboard. Vinyls are used as external controller (if you have turntables), so you don't need to click on Play or press button on keyboard when you want to start the song for example.
It is very easy to control VDJ with external hardware than just with keyboard and mouse. Actually you don't need even external mixer! but it is easier to use external instead of software, isn't it?
It is very easy to control VDJ with external hardware than just with keyboard and mouse. Actually you don't need even external mixer! but it is easier to use external instead of software, isn't it?
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 4:57 pm
Porky2005
Excellent thanks Xeon...this kinda leads me onto my next question (which is still on the same topic).
You say that you find it a bit easier to use external equipment for mixing than the virtual decks - so like slowing the turntable with your hand to line songs up as theyre playing etc (?!) and setting cues up yourself.
For my first ever mix I decided to mix two songs together just using simple beat mixes. At first it sounded horrendous (unsurprisingly) and I remade the CBG (computed beat grid) for each song. I dont think it is possible to get the beat grids absolutely perfect but they were good enough to play the songs over each other for 30 seconds or so.
Either way I found that once the songs were in time (using the beatmatch function) if either one of the songs had the beat removed (using the equaliser) it sounded fine, but if both songs had their baselines playing the beat sounded slightly like this:
Desired: boom --- boom --- boom --- boom --- etc
Actual: boom --- bboom -- bboom --- etc
It was barely noticeable but I think Ive got an ear for hearing when beats are out. My issue is that if a computer where I have calibrated the beats to within miniscule errors can be out of line and is supposedly able to get the beats perfectly in time why could I still not manage to get the songs to sound right? Ive found it with many of the songs Ive played - that if both beats are play there is this effect (is it called a flanging effect?!).
I dont know what to do and I dont think that having any extra equipment would help me eliminate this problem as I get the feeling that I am doing something fairly fundamental incorrect...
Thanks again for any tips - apologies for the lengthy post!
Paul
You say that you find it a bit easier to use external equipment for mixing than the virtual decks - so like slowing the turntable with your hand to line songs up as theyre playing etc (?!) and setting cues up yourself.
For my first ever mix I decided to mix two songs together just using simple beat mixes. At first it sounded horrendous (unsurprisingly) and I remade the CBG (computed beat grid) for each song. I dont think it is possible to get the beat grids absolutely perfect but they were good enough to play the songs over each other for 30 seconds or so.
Either way I found that once the songs were in time (using the beatmatch function) if either one of the songs had the beat removed (using the equaliser) it sounded fine, but if both songs had their baselines playing the beat sounded slightly like this:
Desired: boom --- boom --- boom --- boom --- etc
Actual: boom --- bboom -- bboom --- etc
It was barely noticeable but I think Ive got an ear for hearing when beats are out. My issue is that if a computer where I have calibrated the beats to within miniscule errors can be out of line and is supposedly able to get the beats perfectly in time why could I still not manage to get the songs to sound right? Ive found it with many of the songs Ive played - that if both beats are play there is this effect (is it called a flanging effect?!).
I dont know what to do and I dont think that having any extra equipment would help me eliminate this problem as I get the feeling that I am doing something fairly fundamental incorrect...
Thanks again for any tips - apologies for the lengthy post!
Paul
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 5:11 pm
Porky2005
Note: If there is somewhere I can upload my two examples I would - then it might be a bit easier to understand what I mean!
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 5:14 pm
Manquín
you can upload your examples onto a sever (those that give free space) using an ftp program ,and then put your link here, regards.
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 5:29 pm
xeon
try here:
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/49743/Music_discussion/Don_t_know_where_to_upload_your_mixes_.html
Will download and listen. maybe it will be easier then.
And yes, you can do everything easier and faster with external controller. There is also XP10 or DAC controllers, or maybe DjConsole.
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/49743/Music_discussion/Don_t_know_where_to_upload_your_mixes_.html
Will download and listen. maybe it will be easier then.
And yes, you can do everything easier and faster with external controller. There is also XP10 or DAC controllers, or maybe DjConsole.
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 5:32 pm
Porky2005
Hi again,
Here are my two mixes - same two songs. The first one I killed the base in the second song, disguised the mix slightly with a beat grid beat and faded across, waited until the second song "broke out" and let the base back all in one go. I dont think it sounds bad, but the mix is only 30 seconds long in total and although the beats are in time etc I feel I have cheated slightly by not being able to hear the two beats playing over each other:
http://d01.megashares.com/?d01=e34d199
In the second one I have used no effects whatsoever. I simply started the song on a "1st beat" and let them go into each other. You can hear the second song break out and the beats...well...I think they sound slightly untidy...but maybe Ive just been using this demo too much recently and my hearing is going funny! I think the beats settle towards the end of the mix, probably because the 1st song becomes simpler as it finishes (i.e. has less sound effects.).
I would really like to know what people think of these and let me know if there are any fundamental things that I am not doing - am I right in saying that there is a strange effect with the mixes' beats as they play over each other.
Thanks for any advice,
Paul
http://d01.megashares.com/?d01=c7750e5
Here are my two mixes - same two songs. The first one I killed the base in the second song, disguised the mix slightly with a beat grid beat and faded across, waited until the second song "broke out" and let the base back all in one go. I dont think it sounds bad, but the mix is only 30 seconds long in total and although the beats are in time etc I feel I have cheated slightly by not being able to hear the two beats playing over each other:
http://d01.megashares.com/?d01=e34d199
In the second one I have used no effects whatsoever. I simply started the song on a "1st beat" and let them go into each other. You can hear the second song break out and the beats...well...I think they sound slightly untidy...but maybe Ive just been using this demo too much recently and my hearing is going funny! I think the beats settle towards the end of the mix, probably because the 1st song becomes simpler as it finishes (i.e. has less sound effects.).
I would really like to know what people think of these and let me know if there are any fundamental things that I am not doing - am I right in saying that there is a strange effect with the mixes' beats as they play over each other.
Thanks for any advice,
Paul
http://d01.megashares.com/?d01=c7750e5
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 6:35 pm
Porky2005
Goddamit, why do neither of those links above work for me - something about a passport need to be renewed?! :'(
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 6:36 pm
Andrew87
The CBGs are only as accurate as you can set them, coupled with Virtual DJs (or any programs) beat detection not being perfect, you do need to master at least some basic DJ skills; learning how to tell which track is pitched/positioned too high/low and correcting is one such thing.
Remember, the beat lock will align the CBGs, however, this does not mean the beats are always going to be playing exactly together. There are skins which allow fine adjustment of the positioning of a track which helps tremendously if the beats aren't aligned 100%. Some users probably put too much emphasis on Virtual DJs visual ability and do not correct their mixes using their ears, which is how it should be done.
The best way I find is to simply use the traditional method, which is to slightly but pressure on the platter of your turntable until both tracks are perfectly in sync. If you need to make more corrections, adjust the pitch very finely in the right direction.
When you beatmatch, you want to match the phases too. I.e. in a 4/4 track you would match the first beat of the first bar with the same from the other track. As you get better at this, you will pick up whens a good time to mix tracks in. EQing (easier with external hardware) the frequencies is something you should practice after you're good at beat / phase matching. It's good practice to remove the bass of the track you're bringing in and slowly change it over once the crossfader has been positioned as you see (or hear) fit.
If you have any friends with turntables, do try and practice having a mix on them. The process (at least I find) is more involving and overall enjoyable as you really get a feel for the music. Coupled with VDJ and TCV and things are great :-)
Remember, the beat lock will align the CBGs, however, this does not mean the beats are always going to be playing exactly together. There are skins which allow fine adjustment of the positioning of a track which helps tremendously if the beats aren't aligned 100%. Some users probably put too much emphasis on Virtual DJs visual ability and do not correct their mixes using their ears, which is how it should be done.
The best way I find is to simply use the traditional method, which is to slightly but pressure on the platter of your turntable until both tracks are perfectly in sync. If you need to make more corrections, adjust the pitch very finely in the right direction.
When you beatmatch, you want to match the phases too. I.e. in a 4/4 track you would match the first beat of the first bar with the same from the other track. As you get better at this, you will pick up whens a good time to mix tracks in. EQing (easier with external hardware) the frequencies is something you should practice after you're good at beat / phase matching. It's good practice to remove the bass of the track you're bringing in and slowly change it over once the crossfader has been positioned as you see (or hear) fit.
If you have any friends with turntables, do try and practice having a mix on them. The process (at least I find) is more involving and overall enjoyable as you really get a feel for the music. Coupled with VDJ and TCV and things are great :-)
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 7:34 pm
xeon
great said Andrew87 :)
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 8:10 pm
Porky2005
Thanks for the response Andrew!
I think you are right that to do things properly I cant expect Virtual DJ to do everything for me. I have always wanted to by decks but I have also always been put off by the cost in the past.
I dont think that the decks or equipment is expensive as it is high quality audio equipment but its a lot of money to fork out for something that still effectively only plays music, and something that I am only ever going to be able to do as an interest rather than as a career.
I was looking at the Numark TT500's as my first decks, together with slip mats (Im assuming that they go between the TC-vinyl and the turntable surface)....I have seen them priced at £183 each. I would use the mixer on VDJ for now and invest in a mixer after a bit more practice.
My friend is using a standalone mixer, decks, and everything and I am asking if I can book a trip around his house one afternoon to properly get stuck in!
The reason I have been apprehensive about paying what will be about £500 for decks and a mixer is that I cant help but think of DJing as an art as much as a science...so there is every chance that I could buy the equipment and realise that Im hopeless! Still, I love the music, love electronics and love computers....so DJing seems to make sense as a hobby...
Thanks again for the input guys...feeling more confident already!
Pork
I think you are right that to do things properly I cant expect Virtual DJ to do everything for me. I have always wanted to by decks but I have also always been put off by the cost in the past.
I dont think that the decks or equipment is expensive as it is high quality audio equipment but its a lot of money to fork out for something that still effectively only plays music, and something that I am only ever going to be able to do as an interest rather than as a career.
I was looking at the Numark TT500's as my first decks, together with slip mats (Im assuming that they go between the TC-vinyl and the turntable surface)....I have seen them priced at £183 each. I would use the mixer on VDJ for now and invest in a mixer after a bit more practice.
My friend is using a standalone mixer, decks, and everything and I am asking if I can book a trip around his house one afternoon to properly get stuck in!
The reason I have been apprehensive about paying what will be about £500 for decks and a mixer is that I cant help but think of DJing as an art as much as a science...so there is every chance that I could buy the equipment and realise that Im hopeless! Still, I love the music, love electronics and love computers....so DJing seems to make sense as a hobby...
Thanks again for the input guys...feeling more confident already!
Pork
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 8:51 pm
Andrew87
Glad your found my post helpful. I also have a pair of TT-500s bought from www.jbsmusic.com I had a very good service from them and they were quick to sort out my problems (they initially delivered 2 x TT-200s but when I phoned them they were quick to deliver my TT-500s at no additional cost to myself). They're nice decks, a few other users here use them too.
TCV (if you have to buy turntables, a mixer and a soundcard) are an expensive investment so it would be good to get as much practice at your friends (with the decks) and see how much you like it. If you decide to buy decks you can pick up second hand Technics 1210s from eBay for about £400 a pair. These turntables are the industry standard and so far do not lose their value, therefore if you decide DJing is not for you, you'll get back what you paid for them and only lose a small fee to comission charges.
TCV (if you have to buy turntables, a mixer and a soundcard) are an expensive investment so it would be good to get as much practice at your friends (with the decks) and see how much you like it. If you decide to buy decks you can pick up second hand Technics 1210s from eBay for about £400 a pair. These turntables are the industry standard and so far do not lose their value, therefore if you decide DJing is not for you, you'll get back what you paid for them and only lose a small fee to comission charges.
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 8:59 pm
Porky2005
I never thought to look on ebay for them - I guess they do hold their value since they cant go "out of date" as such.
Is it likely that they will be in good condition or....I guess Ill just have to have a look.
As you say, I think I will get a go on my friends and see if I have the potential...then check out some second hand gear on ebay and if I dont get on with it by the end of the summer Ill sell it off again.
Thanks so much for your help on here Andrew (and everyone!).
DJ Porky. :D
Is it likely that they will be in good condition or....I guess Ill just have to have a look.
As you say, I think I will get a go on my friends and see if I have the potential...then check out some second hand gear on ebay and if I dont get on with it by the end of the summer Ill sell it off again.
Thanks so much for your help on here Andrew (and everyone!).
DJ Porky. :D
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 9:09 pm
Andrew87
No problem. Just make sure that if you do buy second hand from eBay you try to get Technics 1200/1210s. These decks hold their value more than any other deck and have been going strong for many years. I can't say for sure how good the condition of the decks will be from eBay, you'll have to go by the sellers reputation and description. www.djsource.co.uk is a good forum if you need advice regarding this.
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 9:13 pm
Porky2005
Cool is there a difference between Technics 1210's and Technics 1210 Mk2's. A guy is selling 2 of them and a 2 channel mixer for £200. I guess he wants a few more bids on that since 1 deck is selling for £324 on www.decks.com!
Inviato Thu 25 May 06 @ 9:25 pm
Voltron
Be careful choosing 2nd hand's turntables. i have found 2 good 1210 for 600euro on ebay with cartdriges, flycases and slipmates. It's better if u try them before buy.
Look if the pitch slide is ok, if all lamps are ok, but mostly if it mantains a constant speed (lookin the strobe lamp) in this way:
Turn on the TT (In this example technics 1210): u should see a colored lamp (usually red or blue) on the lower-left corner.
Put the pitch slide to 0 position.
Press start button.
Near the light u should see 4 lines of dots (around the platter).
Pitch +6 o o o o o o o o
Pitch +3.3 o o o o o o o o
Pitch 0 O O O O O O O
Pitch -3.3 o o o o o o o o o
Every line corresponds to some pitch values (as shown).
In this example if the turntable is ok, near the strobe u should see the 3rd line of dots stopped. If u see this line moving in a strange way (going to left then to right) vibrating too much it means something bad inside. Now change the pitch to +6 position and look again if the line(now the 1st) is stopped. Repeat this for all pitch values (+6,+3.3,0,-3.3).
This test permits u to look if turntable mantain constant speed.
Another Tip:
Look the weight of TT for spedition costs.
Enjoy,
DjKad
Look if the pitch slide is ok, if all lamps are ok, but mostly if it mantains a constant speed (lookin the strobe lamp) in this way:
Turn on the TT (In this example technics 1210): u should see a colored lamp (usually red or blue) on the lower-left corner.
Put the pitch slide to 0 position.
Press start button.
Near the light u should see 4 lines of dots (around the platter).
Pitch +6 o o o o o o o o
Pitch +3.3 o o o o o o o o
Pitch 0 O O O O O O O
Pitch -3.3 o o o o o o o o o
Every line corresponds to some pitch values (as shown).
In this example if the turntable is ok, near the strobe u should see the 3rd line of dots stopped. If u see this line moving in a strange way (going to left then to right) vibrating too much it means something bad inside. Now change the pitch to +6 position and look again if the line(now the 1st) is stopped. Repeat this for all pitch values (+6,+3.3,0,-3.3).
This test permits u to look if turntable mantain constant speed.
Another Tip:
Look the weight of TT for spedition costs.
Enjoy,
DjKad
Inviato Wed 31 May 06 @ 2:30 am