TJThe DJ
What I mean by punch is for an example is a Bass Kick Drum will have more of a solid feel to it, tight and not boomy sounding. Have you ever been standing next to a good set of speakers and can feel you pant 's shake, or the statement it will part your hair? it is hard to describe. I more than likely used the wrong terminology. I should have said Dynamic range. I have a Rack mount Audio Processor that I had built from Heathkit and it was a high quality piece of equipment, it will Expand the Drum sounds to have more kick if set properly by the Variable Control. But if to much, then the Music will be bouncy sounding. For an example it will take a weak sounding set of Drums or the Music it'self and give it more new life to it's sounds without distortion. I have a very good ear for detecting distortion, the slightest clipping and I can hear it. Clipping is what happens to the Sound Wave. If it gets clipped it will look like a square wave on a Oscilloscope and not curved when normal. The square wave will blow out speakers, due to it's sharp edges as the woofer or midrange speaker will try to reproduce that wave and it will more than likely destroy the voice coil. You can have a woofer rated at 100 Watts RMS and if you use a Power Amp that is only 50 Watts RMS and clip it, the speaker will blow out quickly. If you have a woofer that is rated at 100 Watts RMS and us a Amp that has a lot of head room such as 300 Watts RMS the speaker will not blow as easily due to the headroom from the amp, if not clipped. Clipping causes sever overheating of the voice coil. This is probably not the correct place in the forum to explain this. Maybe this needs to be bumped to a differnt section of the forum.
All in all, do not run your Level Meters into the Red. A slight Red or the first red indicator is ok and not to bad on clipping. if you want more Volume use a better external Preamp and a High Quality Power Amp, keep your VDJ and a reasonable volume output and let the External Preamp take it from there for more Gain. A good quality sound system can give you all of the volume you want to Part everyone's Hair at your Gig. Also when you have a lot of headroom of power it will not sound so loud and offending to your ears, but you can feel the power. Low power and clipping is very loud and annoying to the Human Hearing.
Jon J.
All in all, do not run your Level Meters into the Red. A slight Red or the first red indicator is ok and not to bad on clipping. if you want more Volume use a better external Preamp and a High Quality Power Amp, keep your VDJ and a reasonable volume output and let the External Preamp take it from there for more Gain. A good quality sound system can give you all of the volume you want to Part everyone's Hair at your Gig. Also when you have a lot of headroom of power it will not sound so loud and offending to your ears, but you can feel the power. Low power and clipping is very loud and annoying to the Human Hearing.
Jon J.
Inviato Sat 18 Jul 15 @ 6:49 am
groovindj
I think part of the problem is that VDJ doesn't have any calibrated indication of decibel levels, either marked alongside the meters or with the meter colouring.
Add to that the default zerodb setting of no headroom, and a pumpy limiter.....
I know the markings and meter colours are down to skin design (and some skins do have them) but it would be more helpful if they were on skins designed by Atomix.
Any decent hardware mixer has dB markings and colour coded meters that clearly show where 0dB is and how much headroom remains. IWBNI the software mixer had the same.
Add to that the default zerodb setting of no headroom, and a pumpy limiter.....
I know the markings and meter colours are down to skin design (and some skins do have them) but it would be more helpful if they were on skins designed by Atomix.
Any decent hardware mixer has dB markings and colour coded meters that clearly show where 0dB is and how much headroom remains. IWBNI the software mixer had the same.
Inviato Sat 18 Jul 15 @ 7:28 am
Adion
TJThe DJ wrote :
What I mean by punch is for an example is a Bass Kick Drum will have more of a solid feel to it, tight and not boomy sounding...
Initially you said
Quote :
The VDJ 8 Limiter is very sensitive and needs work. I too have noticed that the sound from 8 is not as clean as 7.
VDJ 7 has more Dynamic punch to it without clipping and distortion. VDJ 8 saturates it's sounds very easily. I also would prefer to turn off the limiter
VDJ 7 has more Dynamic punch to it without clipping and distortion. VDJ 8 saturates it's sounds very easily. I also would prefer to turn off the limiter
I was just trying to make clear that either
-you did hear the limiter working in VDJ 8, but this means the difference in sound is because vdj 7 was clipping in the same scenario, or
-you do not have clipping in vdj 7, and you therefore have also never hit the limiter in vdj 8 (thus having an option to disable it would be useless)
If it is not clipping/limiter, then I'm not sure what could make vdj 7 sound better. Dynamic range, noise, intermodulation distortion etc... are all better in vdj 8 due to improved resampling, mixing and master tempo.
Inviato Sat 18 Jul 15 @ 8:15 am
TJThe DJ
I understand now what you are saying. I should have said that VDJ is very sensitive to to much gain. VDJ 8 does have good sound as long as the gain is not HI.
I really do like VDJ 8 it is much better than 7 as it has many more cool features and runs much smoother and uses a lot less Processor resources than 7.
I did listen closely with my Sony MDR-7506 Headphones and you are correct it does have better sound at normal volume levels. But, if the gain is raised to much it kicks in the limiter and then it does not sound so good. Where 7 does not have that limiter effect and goes to a higher output that is still pretty clean, but is clipping and it is noticeable in my headphones. That would not be good for that kind of high output to the external Preamp, would lose sound quality. I do not know everything there is to know about VDJ 8.
But I am slowly learning from good people like you.
Jon J.
I really do like VDJ 8 it is much better than 7 as it has many more cool features and runs much smoother and uses a lot less Processor resources than 7.
I did listen closely with my Sony MDR-7506 Headphones and you are correct it does have better sound at normal volume levels. But, if the gain is raised to much it kicks in the limiter and then it does not sound so good. Where 7 does not have that limiter effect and goes to a higher output that is still pretty clean, but is clipping and it is noticeable in my headphones. That would not be good for that kind of high output to the external Preamp, would lose sound quality. I do not know everything there is to know about VDJ 8.
But I am slowly learning from good people like you.
Jon J.
Inviato Sat 18 Jul 15 @ 10:19 am
Hardykofi
THE LIMITER IN VIRTUAL DJ IS PRODUCING OUT DIRTY SOUND, ITS VRY ANNOYING AND I WISH THERE WAS NO LIMITER IN IN.
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
Inviato Fri 01 Jan 16 @ 9:09 pm
Hardykofi
semaha wrote :
THE LIMITER IN VIRTUAL DJ IS PRODUCING OUT DIRTY SOUND, ITS VRY ANNOYING AND I WISH THERE WAS NO LIMITER IN IN.
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
Inviato Fri 01 Jan 16 @ 9:10 pm
wickedmix
semaha wrote :
THE LIMITER IN VIRTUAL DJ IS PRODUCING OUT DIRTY SOUND, ITS VRY ANNOYING AND I WISH THERE WAS NO LIMITER IN IN.
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
IT JUDT DISTORTS MUSIC TOO MUCH ...
SERATO HAVE CLEAN SOUND
Adjust Zerodb to -3 or -6 and you will find yourself with pristine sound that will make angels cry
Inviato Fri 01 Jan 16 @ 10:17 pm
DJ Bertie
I am pro optional limiter. My right limiter always spirals out of control. The kicker? I don't have my mixer mapped to vdj, therefore this is a problem on vdj behalf.
Inviato Sat 02 Jan 16 @ 4:10 pm
blckjck
DJ Bertie wrote :
I am pro optional limiter. My right limiter always spirals out of control. The kicker? I don't have my mixer mapped to vdj, therefore this is a problem on vdj behalf.
Do you mean your right deck limiter or the master output?
Are you using an external mixer with each deck channel mapped to a channel on the mixer.
Did you adjust your ZeroDB setting?
Inviato Sat 02 Jan 16 @ 5:34 pm
DJ Bertie
blckjck wrote :
Do you mean your right deck limiter or the master output?
Are you using an external mixer with each deck channel mapped to a channel on the mixer.
Did you adjust your ZeroDB setting?
DJ Bertie wrote :
I am pro optional limiter. My right limiter always spirals out of control. The kicker? I don't have my mixer mapped to vdj, therefore this is a problem on vdj behalf.
Do you mean your right deck limiter or the master output?
Are you using an external mixer with each deck channel mapped to a channel on the mixer.
Did you adjust your ZeroDB setting?
The right deck limiter, not the master limiter. I'm using an external mixer that is NOT mapped to vdj. And I don't touch my decibel settings at all...I use my mixer for that.
Inviato Sat 02 Jan 16 @ 5:37 pm
blckjck
It mean the ZeroDB setting in the options. What is it set to?
Inviato Sat 02 Jan 16 @ 6:11 pm
Hardykofi
VIRTUAL DJ LIMITER SUCKS , THEY SHOULD HAVE AND OFF ND ON BUTTON ON THE LIMITER
NOT EVERYONE WANTS THE LIMITER AND WHY SHOULD THE LIMITER BE SET FOR EVERYONE
NOT EVERYONE WANTS THE LIMITER AND WHY SHOULD THE LIMITER BE SET FOR EVERYONE
Inviato Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 9:52 am
Adion
Because clipping sucks even more.
Inviato Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 9:57 am
djjohnnyrox
Since most who are complaining about the limiter don't understand that when the limiter kicks in the sound is at oe beyond the distortion point, why not have - 6db enabled by default or even better, permanently lower the output by -6db.
Inviato Wed 06 Jan 16 @ 4:29 pm
groovindj
....or improve the "sound" of the limiter so that it doesn't spoil the signal the way it currently does.
If it did its job without being so audible, there wouldn't be so many complaints.
If it did its job without being so audible, there wouldn't be so many complaints.
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 6:37 pm
blckjck
I'm getting dizzy with multiple threads. Here were my thoughts on a different thread.
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/204724/General_Discussion/VDJ8_Limiter_ruins_the_sound_quality__would_like_a_option_to_turn_it_off__.html
http://www.virtualdj.com/forums/204724/General_Discussion/VDJ8_Limiter_ruins_the_sound_quality__would_like_a_option_to_turn_it_off__.html
blckjck wrote :
Please note, I do like having the limiter. I just feel the default setting for ZeroDB should be at -3db to avoid most of these posts. I feel a hard limiter should never kick in. I have tested these songs on my rig running full out, outdoors. I do hear the limiter, even when it's once in a while. Maybe I notice it more then some because it's my system, and I also do live sound with it, I tend to notice any frequency abnormality or popping. All of the songs tested are Promo Only Lossless tracks converted to AIFF (still lossless just less compression). It seems the limiter kicks in more frequently on tracks that do not have a large db difference through out the song. Uptown Funk, Want you to want me, and Locked Away would kick in even during chorus parts.
Uptown Funk - Bruno Mars hits the limiter frequently.
Where are you now - Skrillex
Want you to want me - Jason Derulo
Honey, I'm good (Promo Only Clean Edit) - Andy Grammer
FourFiveSeconds - Rihanna
Locked Away - R.City
EDIT: I am using timecode with an Audio6 card and an external mixer. These are channel limiters that I am seeing.
Adion wrote :
Do you guys have any track titles of songs that make the limiter noticeable that much?
I'm using zeroDb at the default 0dB and there's maybe 1 out of 1000 tracks that the gain need to be fixed for...
I'm using zeroDb at the default 0dB and there's maybe 1 out of 1000 tracks that the gain need to be fixed for...
Please note, I do like having the limiter. I just feel the default setting for ZeroDB should be at -3db to avoid most of these posts. I feel a hard limiter should never kick in. I have tested these songs on my rig running full out, outdoors. I do hear the limiter, even when it's once in a while. Maybe I notice it more then some because it's my system, and I also do live sound with it, I tend to notice any frequency abnormality or popping. All of the songs tested are Promo Only Lossless tracks converted to AIFF (still lossless just less compression). It seems the limiter kicks in more frequently on tracks that do not have a large db difference through out the song. Uptown Funk, Want you to want me, and Locked Away would kick in even during chorus parts.
Uptown Funk - Bruno Mars hits the limiter frequently.
Where are you now - Skrillex
Want you to want me - Jason Derulo
Honey, I'm good (Promo Only Clean Edit) - Andy Grammer
FourFiveSeconds - Rihanna
Locked Away - R.City
EDIT: I am using timecode with an Audio6 card and an external mixer. These are channel limiters that I am seeing.
blckjck wrote :
As far as hard limiting vs soft limiting. I appreciate the hard limiter. I feel that if a soft compressor was used, people wouldn't notice it as much. Now, while to some that sounds great, they don't want to hear it. However, when you start driving it into compression, you also lose the songs dynamic range on an already studio compressed track. If people are running their system hard or at it's capacity to begin with, the speakers loose the much needed cooling time between high peaks. Things overheat or wear out faster because people don't hear the difference and fail to turn it down.
Not having the limiter and sending signals that are digitally clipped is even worse. Please leave on the protection.
Not having the limiter and sending signals that are digitally clipped is even worse. Please leave on the protection.
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 7:11 pm
djjohnnyrox
groovin said: or improve the "sound" of the limiter so that it doesn't spoil the signal the way it currently does......
If the limiter is kicking in the sound is already at the point of being ruined....
maybe the solution is a built in compressor / limiter something like loudmax... that at looks ahead and slowly limits the volume.
I never understood in VDJ ,when you start the program the master volume is all the way up, I have mine programmed to start at 75% and I still end up turning it down depending on the venue. But i would be willing to bet that a good majority play with the master all the way up
Adion i think you're expecting that most who are using the software understand sound and many do... but there are so many who open their computers, load their music and turn the faders all the way up and push play.....
If the limiter is kicking in the sound is already at the point of being ruined....
maybe the solution is a built in compressor / limiter something like loudmax... that at looks ahead and slowly limits the volume.
I never understood in VDJ ,when you start the program the master volume is all the way up, I have mine programmed to start at 75% and I still end up turning it down depending on the venue. But i would be willing to bet that a good majority play with the master all the way up
Adion i think you're expecting that most who are using the software understand sound and many do... but there are so many who open their computers, load their music and turn the faders all the way up and push play.....
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 7:37 pm
Adion
A look-ahead limiter would indeed be able to sound better, but also adds latency.
How you use all the controls to end up with the sound you like is of course up to you, but having the level faders all the way up is quite common practice, there's not much wrong with that.
If you need to control the overall volume over time, the master volume would be a more logical choice to use.
To add headroom the gain is the best choice (which is easiest to do automatically using the zeroDb setting)
How you use all the controls to end up with the sound you like is of course up to you, but having the level faders all the way up is quite common practice, there's not much wrong with that.
If you need to control the overall volume over time, the master volume would be a more logical choice to use.
To add headroom the gain is the best choice (which is easiest to do automatically using the zeroDb setting)
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 7:43 pm
djjohnnyrox
How much latency does it add??? maybe thats something that could be implemented with the option to use the look ahead or the brickwall limiter
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 7:49 pm
wickedmix
i would just like to say please do not change the limiter i am fine with it as is :-)
Inviato Thu 07 Jan 16 @ 8:14 pm