Sharan
I dont think its a good way to draw an analogy to music-downloads when referring to the data-transfer that is being active while using a ProController.
If this is indeed the way how it works - "downloading" music from your hd and then sending it back to the computer - we actually would have the double amount of data. Since ADSL can get as fast as 8Mbps, its easy to calculate a total data amount of 16Mbps which theoratically would exceed the bandwith of USB 1.1.
But in fact this is mere speculation. Maybe someone from the developer crew can clear this matter once and for all. Cant really imagine the XP10 relies on USB 1.1 when this would cause severe bandwith problems.
If this is indeed the way how it works - "downloading" music from your hd and then sending it back to the computer - we actually would have the double amount of data. Since ADSL can get as fast as 8Mbps, its easy to calculate a total data amount of 16Mbps which theoratically would exceed the bandwith of USB 1.1.
But in fact this is mere speculation. Maybe someone from the developer crew can clear this matter once and for all. Cant really imagine the XP10 relies on USB 1.1 when this would cause severe bandwith problems.
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 9:31 am
Sharan
Also music you download from the internet is in compressed format so its maybe around 20% or the original wav file. Once its played it is being uncompressed and this is the way the data is processed in a computer. So the total data flow to an external sound card should be much bigger as when you would transfer only an mp3 there.
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 9:55 am
Redman247
I think actually it is a very good analogy. And all though the theoretical maximum bandwidth for ADSL may get to 8Mbps under optimal conditions, I do not see many people with that connection to get that speed consistently let alone ever attaining it at this day and age, unless they are on something other than ADSL (T-1, T-3, OC-XX) or using several ADSL connections in tandem with each other.
Even going under your speculation of double the bandwidth necessary while coupled with knowledge that at 1.5 Mbps on a dedicated connection doubles to 3 Mbps, I still see a full 9 Mbps to spare. Even under the idea I proposed of overhead you would still have 2 Mbps to spare under your speculation. You talk about using WAV files for mixing, when the majority of people here are using smaller MP3's. Also if you read about MP3's they are not compressed. That is not what gives them there small size, it is the fact that inaudible sounds to humans in the high and low frequencies are removed, the larger range of sound you remove the worse the quality of sound you get as it starts dipping into sounds you can hear, the less you remove the better the quality.
Also what you are trying to describe is TCP/IP packet compression in response to (what I am guessing you are talking about) my comment about downloading and listening to an MP3 at the same time. When you transfer the file over the Internet some compression is taking place, when the computer plays this file (even during the download) it is already decompressed as it has been done so at the NIC (Network Interface Card) so when you play the file it is the same byte for byte (up to the point of how much of the file you have downloaded) as the original from where you downloaded it from.
If some benchmarks could be provided from the Staff on this it would quell all/some of the questions concerning performance of the controller.
Regards;
Redman247
Even going under your speculation of double the bandwidth necessary while coupled with knowledge that at 1.5 Mbps on a dedicated connection doubles to 3 Mbps, I still see a full 9 Mbps to spare. Even under the idea I proposed of overhead you would still have 2 Mbps to spare under your speculation. You talk about using WAV files for mixing, when the majority of people here are using smaller MP3's. Also if you read about MP3's they are not compressed. That is not what gives them there small size, it is the fact that inaudible sounds to humans in the high and low frequencies are removed, the larger range of sound you remove the worse the quality of sound you get as it starts dipping into sounds you can hear, the less you remove the better the quality.
Also what you are trying to describe is TCP/IP packet compression in response to (what I am guessing you are talking about) my comment about downloading and listening to an MP3 at the same time. When you transfer the file over the Internet some compression is taking place, when the computer plays this file (even during the download) it is already decompressed as it has been done so at the NIC (Network Interface Card) so when you play the file it is the same byte for byte (up to the point of how much of the file you have downloaded) as the original from where you downloaded it from.
If some benchmarks could be provided from the Staff on this it would quell all/some of the questions concerning performance of the controller.
Regards;
Redman247
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 1:22 pm
Sharan
The question is what is being processed by the ProController?
If it indeed only reads out mp3 from the HD we are talking of course about a much less huge amount of data as when the CPU sends a decoded mp3 to the USB device.
You are definitely right when you claim that size of mp3-files is smaller than the original .wav. This is what compression usually does! ;)
But what in fact you are at last listening to is not the mp3 itself but a DECODED mp3 file. As the mp3 is read out from the HD it is being processed further so your soundcard can make use of it. After that "inflating-process" the amount of data load to the system isnt different as if you would be listening to a .wav file directly.
If it indeed only reads out mp3 from the HD we are talking of course about a much less huge amount of data as when the CPU sends a decoded mp3 to the USB device.
You are definitely right when you claim that size of mp3-files is smaller than the original .wav. This is what compression usually does! ;)
But what in fact you are at last listening to is not the mp3 itself but a DECODED mp3 file. As the mp3 is read out from the HD it is being processed further so your soundcard can make use of it. After that "inflating-process" the amount of data load to the system isnt different as if you would be listening to a .wav file directly.
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 2:27 pm
Redman247
Redman247 Read my post again, albeit slower this time. You'll see I did not agree with you on compression, as they (MP3's) are not compressed.
And yes of course you are listening to a decoded MP3 (Which has nothing to do with compression) That is why you normally need a Codec to listen to MP3's, otherwise it would sound very much like a modem squelching over the telephone lines (providing you can get a program to play RAW over your soundcard or PC speaker). Do you not think .wav files require a Codec? Just because it is integrated in the Windows Operating System does not mean it has a shorter path to your speakers through the system, it has to go about becoming audible just about same way an MP3 does.
I am starting to believe you are getting the idea that compression and encoding are one in the same, or that there terms are easily interchangeable, which in this case they are not. MP3's are encoded, not compressed.
As for the controller accessing the harddirve, it won't as it is VDJ accessing the hardirve and then sending the data to the controller.
Regards;
Redman247
And yes of course you are listening to a decoded MP3 (Which has nothing to do with compression) That is why you normally need a Codec to listen to MP3's, otherwise it would sound very much like a modem squelching over the telephone lines (providing you can get a program to play RAW over your soundcard or PC speaker). Do you not think .wav files require a Codec? Just because it is integrated in the Windows Operating System does not mean it has a shorter path to your speakers through the system, it has to go about becoming audible just about same way an MP3 does.
I am starting to believe you are getting the idea that compression and encoding are one in the same, or that there terms are easily interchangeable, which in this case they are not. MP3's are encoded, not compressed.
As for the controller accessing the harddirve, it won't as it is VDJ accessing the hardirve and then sending the data to the controller.
Regards;
Redman247
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 3:04 pm
Sharan
Hmm...
dont see much point in continuing this argument longer.
It is a fact that .wav (a standard file format for pcm audio=uncompressed native digital audiofiles) consume less CPU power to play than MP3 do, this is because they arent encoded and thus dont need any DECODING, though - no doubt about that -another codec is needed for playback. Concerning the terms "compression" to create mp3's or "encoding" is in my opinion basically the same. After all the result is a file which is smaller as before. But if you want to be VERY accurate you would have to call it "encoding" because the mp3-codec is used to create a lossy new file and its not a compressed file which after uncompressing is identical to the source file. But if you check:
http://bear.cba.ufl.edu/teets/projects/ISM6222F102/richarsp/
Even the University of Florida uses that "wrong" term compression relating to mp3. :)
My point is - to finish this now - that the data load the system (or USB connectors) have to handle is the same for WAV or MP3. No matter if the original source is MP3, OGG Vorbis or whatever it has to be converted to a default uncompressed audio format which Windows can process further.
dont see much point in continuing this argument longer.
It is a fact that .wav (a standard file format for pcm audio=uncompressed native digital audiofiles) consume less CPU power to play than MP3 do, this is because they arent encoded and thus dont need any DECODING, though - no doubt about that -another codec is needed for playback. Concerning the terms "compression" to create mp3's or "encoding" is in my opinion basically the same. After all the result is a file which is smaller as before. But if you want to be VERY accurate you would have to call it "encoding" because the mp3-codec is used to create a lossy new file and its not a compressed file which after uncompressing is identical to the source file. But if you check:
http://bear.cba.ufl.edu/teets/projects/ISM6222F102/richarsp/
Even the University of Florida uses that "wrong" term compression relating to mp3. :)
My point is - to finish this now - that the data load the system (or USB connectors) have to handle is the same for WAV or MP3. No matter if the original source is MP3, OGG Vorbis or whatever it has to be converted to a default uncompressed audio format which Windows can process further.
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 4:54 pm
DJ Rick
But remember that VirtualDJ loads the entire song into memory (RAM) when you drag it to the desk. So even if you have a slower HDD connection to an external drive, it may slow the read, or load rate, but it should make NO difference in the playability. In fact, once a song is loaded you can actually unplug the hard drive and it will still play.
(not sure if this applies to your discussion or not, just wanted to get these facts in)
(not sure if this applies to your discussion or not, just wanted to get these facts in)
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 5:54 pm
digitalmdj
We are allowed to debate this thats what makes this interesting. First the controller is basically a sound card which also sends information back to the program to control the functions of the software. To my understanding they are midi signals. That means information is moving back and forth from the computer to the controller via software .It does not decode MP3's The software does that. The sound card converts the digital signal from the computer into a analog signal for your speakers .It is a USB1.1 device and it needs a full speed USB1.1 connection to work properly.So this is not just a sound card it has to send information back and forth At the same time music is streamed to the sound card going through the usb port.Just to have a sound card is bad enough but to send information back and forth at the same time is where the problems start. That when you get time lag if your bandwidth get exceded .
Inviato Fri 30 Jan 04 @ 6:07 pm
Redman247
@Sharan,
First off I was not aware that we were arguing. I was under the impression that we were debating in a discussion. Arguing usually denotes loss of rationale.
Next, I went to the site that you recommended and saw the terms being interchanged by what appears to be (by the construction of the site and the word “project” in the URL) a students class project. I submit these two links to you for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=encode
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=compress
And with that, I'll respect your wish on a ceased continuation on the topic of MP3's "compression or encoding". Thank you for your input.
Regards;
Redman247
First off I was not aware that we were arguing. I was under the impression that we were debating in a discussion. Arguing usually denotes loss of rationale.
Next, I went to the site that you recommended and saw the terms being interchanged by what appears to be (by the construction of the site and the word “project” in the URL) a students class project. I submit these two links to you for your viewing pleasure.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=encode
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=compress
And with that, I'll respect your wish on a ceased continuation on the topic of MP3's "compression or encoding". Thank you for your input.
Regards;
Redman247
Inviato Sun 01 Feb 04 @ 4:44 pm
Sharan
@ Redman247:
ar·gu·ment
3 a : the act or process of arguing : ARGUMENTATION
ar·gu·men·ta·tion
1 : the act or process of forming reasons and of drawing conclusions and applying them to a case in discussion
dis·cus·sion
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
For your viewing pleasure! :)
(btw.. cant really agree with you on the way you define argumentation , maybe this is worth a new thread in this forum?)
Best Regards... -S-
ar·gu·ment
3 a : the act or process of arguing : ARGUMENTATION
ar·gu·men·ta·tion
1 : the act or process of forming reasons and of drawing conclusions and applying them to a case in discussion
dis·cus·sion
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate
2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
For your viewing pleasure! :)
(btw.. cant really agree with you on the way you define argumentation , maybe this is worth a new thread in this forum?)
Best Regards... -S-
Inviato Mon 02 Feb 04 @ 5:22 pm
Homeboy
Ok thats enough. Way off topic here people....
Inviato Mon 02 Feb 04 @ 5:27 pm
nancyb
So is it availble to purchase yet?
Inviato Tue 03 Feb 04 @ 2:43 am
DJCannonball
Digitalmdj,
please note that there is no back-and-forward-audiostream from and to the console. The music source is on the harddrive, decoded by the CPU, qued and controled by signals from the console. finally, the audiostream goes 'oneway' from your pc to your console, not backwards! Therefore USB1.1 has enough bandwith to handle 2 audio channels+control(midisignals-alike) perconsole allright!
please let's cut this USB1.1 bandwith discussion, there's nothing more to say about it.
now where can i order 2 pieces VDJ-pro controlers?
please note that there is no back-and-forward-audiostream from and to the console. The music source is on the harddrive, decoded by the CPU, qued and controled by signals from the console. finally, the audiostream goes 'oneway' from your pc to your console, not backwards! Therefore USB1.1 has enough bandwith to handle 2 audio channels+control(midisignals-alike) perconsole allright!
please let's cut this USB1.1 bandwith discussion, there's nothing more to say about it.
now where can i order 2 pieces VDJ-pro controlers?
Inviato Tue 03 Feb 04 @ 10:06 am
digitalmdj
I have to say this for you you dont really understand this do you .You send signals to VDJ .Which is the software of choice.Now that is the signal (in).VDJ loads the song into memory and as I underststand it is decoded while it is being loaded.So if support is around let us know if this is correct.Now you send a signal to the software from the controller via USB port to the software.Which is again the signal (in). Now the digital audio stream is sent via USB port to the controller .Which is the (out) so now we have signals in and out the USB port.The controller does not control the audio stream.It cntrolls the VDJ software which controls the audio stream to the controller.The controller has a digital to analog converter which coverts the stream to analog for your speakers.So what part of this dont you understand.The controller does not control the audio stream itself.Without the software it is unable to do anything.What use would the software be if it could control the audio stream through the controller.All you would need is a cd player.
Inviato Tue 03 Feb 04 @ 6:03 pm
sketch
Arn't you both say the same thing in the last two posts......
Anyway 5.1 USB soundcards exist - they must carry more information than standard stero. Front and rear mapped is mapped to a 2ch mixer this way, completly seperate. The control data signal bandwidth is tiny - nothing to worry about.
If you have to use 2 xp10's and hence 2 usb ports might this have an effect becuase of number of USB devices?
Anybody?
Dan
Anyway 5.1 USB soundcards exist - they must carry more information than standard stero. Front and rear mapped is mapped to a 2ch mixer this way, completly seperate. The control data signal bandwidth is tiny - nothing to worry about.
If you have to use 2 xp10's and hence 2 usb ports might this have an effect becuase of number of USB devices?
Anybody?
Dan
Inviato Tue 03 Feb 04 @ 6:45 pm
digitalmdj
He seem to think the controller control the audio stream. It only controlls the software program.
Inviato Tue 03 Feb 04 @ 8:15 pm
twe69
well just wanted to say to sharan that WAV files are not raw audio files, i.e. it is a compressed format. However they have become a native standard in Windows. [don't want to get into an argument over this]....
Inviato Thu 05 Feb 04 @ 1:51 am
Sharan
*hehe*
i dont say one more thing to that, just that you guys plz dont try to write anything you havent even the slightest bliss of. thx!
best regards -s-
i dont say one more thing to that, just that you guys plz dont try to write anything you havent even the slightest bliss of. thx!
best regards -s-
Inviato Thu 05 Feb 04 @ 6:24 am
DJCannonball
please please please Stop about usb-bandwith!
i understand it perfectly clear, and i REALY would like to stop arguing about that. just cut it out ok? it's no use and this discussion is getting nowhere. i will simply ingnore furter posts about usb bandwith.
i understand it perfectly clear, and i REALY would like to stop arguing about that. just cut it out ok? it's no use and this discussion is getting nowhere. i will simply ingnore furter posts about usb bandwith.
Inviato Thu 05 Feb 04 @ 9:24 am
DJ Cyder
how about that xp10? anyone got one yet we are coming up on mid february...
Inviato Sat 07 Feb 04 @ 11:49 pm
