anewsome
First, for those of you who don't know me, I'm a LONG time VDJ user,.. since version 1.7 I think it was. It was a long time ago. More recently (Jan of this year), I switched to SSL as my primary DJ system, using VDJ only when I need to.
The bummer about SSL was for me the only way I could try it was to buy it, and it was quite expensive. After buying it and trying it, I was immediately impressed by the TCV implementation and since that day, that has been the "GOLD STANDARD" by which I compare every other TCV implemenation. This post isn't about "other features" but I will mention that I was excited by SSL's TCV support but also bummed that I would lose about 90% of the features in VDJ, a few of which I'd got used to using, like loops and the auto bpm counter. Neither were present in SSL.
Losing the features was well worth the superior tcv implementation and stability though. No question.
After using VDJ live for a 6 hour set, completely with TCV and music videos. I made a note of some things. Some of these are just buggy behavoir and some of them are just bad implementation in my opinion, although I'm sure it does work exactly as the programmers meant it to.
First, there is no real "absolute mode" in VDJ. Absolute means EXACTLY that. Serato has implemented this correctly. Pick a song and a spot on the record, that spot on the record will ALWAYS point to the same spot in that song not matter what (unless you change the vinyl offset in setup). The sticker on the record will always bring you back to the same point. CUE POINTS should not work in absolute mode. LOOPS should not work in absolute mode. Autobeatmatching, automixing, clone deck and most of that AUTO stuff that is contrary to a real absolute mode, should not work. They all do in VDJ and that is in my opinion, a bad "Absolute" mode implementation. The only "auto' things that should work are non-positional type things like keylock and auto gain. Any feature that can change the position of the song in relation to the record should not work in absolute mode (as it does correctly in SSL).
No matter what mode you have, if you use TCV, the pitch slider on your turntables should ALWAYS be accurate. In SSL, no matter how you are using the program, if vinyls are in use, the pitch slider is accurate and controls the song exactly the way you expect it to. Now I do understand that in VDJ there is a need to make it so that the pitch slider is not always accurate (auto-bpm, etc),.. but there should be a way of making it so that the pitch slider on your turntable is ALWAYS accurate, probably disabling those features that would conflict with this. There is no combination of options that I have been able to find that would make the pitch sliders always accurate. Auto-pitch reset on or off, I kept finding myself in situations where the pitch slider on my turntable was at +4% or something and the video was moving at -3% or something wacky like that. This is by design in VDJ and I'm certain it works exactly the way they want it to so it's not a bug. It's just a wrong implementation. In SSL, when using Vinyl, you can not change the speed of the song in the software. The only way to change it it to move your pitch slider on your turntable, which is the way it should be. Allowing the software to change the speed AND allowing the speed to be changed on the turntable is just wrong. There should be an option in VDJ to fix this.
In SSL, no matter what mode you are in, if the needle is on the record, the record is moving and the song position is at the begining of the song. It plays, period. Not so in VDJ, again, I'm sure by design. I should never be looking at my screen saying to myself. "Ok, the needle is on the record. It's moving. It says I have 100% tcv signal. Everything looks like the song should be playing, but it's not". Well this is because the song played until the end and I moved the song position back to the start with the mouse. The song doesn't start until you STOP THE VINYL AND WAIT A SEC AND THEN START IT AGAIN. Wtf? I'll say this again "If the needle is on the record, it is moving and the song position indicator is anywhere before the end of the song, the song should be playing". SSL does this correctly, VDJ does not.
If I am playing a song and I disengage TCV, the song should continue playing AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED. In SSL, no matter what mode you are in, if you disengage TCV (and go to what they call internal mode), the song continues to play at the same speed. Why you would want it to work any other way is beyond my comprehension but this is the way VDJ works. I don't know if there is an option that will make it work correctly, I tried a couple different things but no luck. I'm sure this works the way the developers want it to, so again, I don't think it's a bug, I just think it's wrong. If I'm playing a song at +6% and I disengage TCV, why would I want or expect the pitch to instantly go down to 0%? Even if there is a valid reason for wanting this broken behavoir as default, there should be a way to "fix" it.
I couldn't figure out a way to emulate SSL's "input reverse" in VDJ for TCV. This is a LIFESAVER in SSL, when one of your turntables dies out or you break a needle, or 1 of your turntables becomes otherwise not usable. In SSL you can assign the turntable to control either deck and it's saved my ass when equipment craps out. Last night when my TCV crapped out (buggy VDJ), I was wishing for a way to be able to assign the turntable that was working to either deck. If it does exist in VDJ, I couldn't figure it out and it certainly does not exist on the default skin. In SSL it's right there at the top, all the time and it works.
Buggy buggy buggy is how I'd have to charecterize the remaining issues. Weird little things that happen here and there that just make the TCV implementation not feel all that good. The fact that TCV just stopped on me last night, the fact that sometimes when I start up VDJ tcv works on both sides, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I have to fiddle with settings, this all feels buggy to me. In SSL I plug the box in (program started or not) and it works. Everytime. Day in, day out. Never do I have to restart the program, fiddle with setting, plug and unplug things at random or whatever. In SSL the vinyls work as you expect it to all the time. That's been my experience.
Not related to timecodes but I wanted to add to my previous rant about how the waveforms in SSL are so much more useful. In VDJ, a quiet song will have a waveform that looks exactly like a really loud sound. That is no matter what the level, the waveform is maximized to fill the waveform area regardless of it's recording level. In SSL quiet songs have a skinny waveform, really loud songs have a really fat waveform. To me this is more useful and conveys more information. Add that to my list of why SSL waveforms are so much better than the mono-color dumbed down VDJ waveforms.
So there is few things that I think would improve TCV performance in VDJ. Admitedly, it would make the TCV control more like SSL's and that the developers and Stephane could really care less how things work in SSL but I'm giving my opinion here on why I think "THAT WAY IS BETTER", it performs as close to real vinyl as possible in absolute mode and it does sensible things by default in relative mode.
The bummer about SSL was for me the only way I could try it was to buy it, and it was quite expensive. After buying it and trying it, I was immediately impressed by the TCV implementation and since that day, that has been the "GOLD STANDARD" by which I compare every other TCV implemenation. This post isn't about "other features" but I will mention that I was excited by SSL's TCV support but also bummed that I would lose about 90% of the features in VDJ, a few of which I'd got used to using, like loops and the auto bpm counter. Neither were present in SSL.
Losing the features was well worth the superior tcv implementation and stability though. No question.
After using VDJ live for a 6 hour set, completely with TCV and music videos. I made a note of some things. Some of these are just buggy behavoir and some of them are just bad implementation in my opinion, although I'm sure it does work exactly as the programmers meant it to.
First, there is no real "absolute mode" in VDJ. Absolute means EXACTLY that. Serato has implemented this correctly. Pick a song and a spot on the record, that spot on the record will ALWAYS point to the same spot in that song not matter what (unless you change the vinyl offset in setup). The sticker on the record will always bring you back to the same point. CUE POINTS should not work in absolute mode. LOOPS should not work in absolute mode. Autobeatmatching, automixing, clone deck and most of that AUTO stuff that is contrary to a real absolute mode, should not work. They all do in VDJ and that is in my opinion, a bad "Absolute" mode implementation. The only "auto' things that should work are non-positional type things like keylock and auto gain. Any feature that can change the position of the song in relation to the record should not work in absolute mode (as it does correctly in SSL).
No matter what mode you have, if you use TCV, the pitch slider on your turntables should ALWAYS be accurate. In SSL, no matter how you are using the program, if vinyls are in use, the pitch slider is accurate and controls the song exactly the way you expect it to. Now I do understand that in VDJ there is a need to make it so that the pitch slider is not always accurate (auto-bpm, etc),.. but there should be a way of making it so that the pitch slider on your turntable is ALWAYS accurate, probably disabling those features that would conflict with this. There is no combination of options that I have been able to find that would make the pitch sliders always accurate. Auto-pitch reset on or off, I kept finding myself in situations where the pitch slider on my turntable was at +4% or something and the video was moving at -3% or something wacky like that. This is by design in VDJ and I'm certain it works exactly the way they want it to so it's not a bug. It's just a wrong implementation. In SSL, when using Vinyl, you can not change the speed of the song in the software. The only way to change it it to move your pitch slider on your turntable, which is the way it should be. Allowing the software to change the speed AND allowing the speed to be changed on the turntable is just wrong. There should be an option in VDJ to fix this.
In SSL, no matter what mode you are in, if the needle is on the record, the record is moving and the song position is at the begining of the song. It plays, period. Not so in VDJ, again, I'm sure by design. I should never be looking at my screen saying to myself. "Ok, the needle is on the record. It's moving. It says I have 100% tcv signal. Everything looks like the song should be playing, but it's not". Well this is because the song played until the end and I moved the song position back to the start with the mouse. The song doesn't start until you STOP THE VINYL AND WAIT A SEC AND THEN START IT AGAIN. Wtf? I'll say this again "If the needle is on the record, it is moving and the song position indicator is anywhere before the end of the song, the song should be playing". SSL does this correctly, VDJ does not.
If I am playing a song and I disengage TCV, the song should continue playing AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED. In SSL, no matter what mode you are in, if you disengage TCV (and go to what they call internal mode), the song continues to play at the same speed. Why you would want it to work any other way is beyond my comprehension but this is the way VDJ works. I don't know if there is an option that will make it work correctly, I tried a couple different things but no luck. I'm sure this works the way the developers want it to, so again, I don't think it's a bug, I just think it's wrong. If I'm playing a song at +6% and I disengage TCV, why would I want or expect the pitch to instantly go down to 0%? Even if there is a valid reason for wanting this broken behavoir as default, there should be a way to "fix" it.
I couldn't figure out a way to emulate SSL's "input reverse" in VDJ for TCV. This is a LIFESAVER in SSL, when one of your turntables dies out or you break a needle, or 1 of your turntables becomes otherwise not usable. In SSL you can assign the turntable to control either deck and it's saved my ass when equipment craps out. Last night when my TCV crapped out (buggy VDJ), I was wishing for a way to be able to assign the turntable that was working to either deck. If it does exist in VDJ, I couldn't figure it out and it certainly does not exist on the default skin. In SSL it's right there at the top, all the time and it works.
Buggy buggy buggy is how I'd have to charecterize the remaining issues. Weird little things that happen here and there that just make the TCV implementation not feel all that good. The fact that TCV just stopped on me last night, the fact that sometimes when I start up VDJ tcv works on both sides, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I have to fiddle with settings, this all feels buggy to me. In SSL I plug the box in (program started or not) and it works. Everytime. Day in, day out. Never do I have to restart the program, fiddle with setting, plug and unplug things at random or whatever. In SSL the vinyls work as you expect it to all the time. That's been my experience.
Not related to timecodes but I wanted to add to my previous rant about how the waveforms in SSL are so much more useful. In VDJ, a quiet song will have a waveform that looks exactly like a really loud sound. That is no matter what the level, the waveform is maximized to fill the waveform area regardless of it's recording level. In SSL quiet songs have a skinny waveform, really loud songs have a really fat waveform. To me this is more useful and conveys more information. Add that to my list of why SSL waveforms are so much better than the mono-color dumbed down VDJ waveforms.
So there is few things that I think would improve TCV performance in VDJ. Admitedly, it would make the TCV control more like SSL's and that the developers and Stephane could really care less how things work in SSL but I'm giving my opinion here on why I think "THAT WAY IS BETTER", it performs as close to real vinyl as possible in absolute mode and it does sensible things by default in relative mode.
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 8:58 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Damn, we need you back at vip & beta testing ;)
I agree with quite a few of the things, and Apopsis and other vinyl djs have been asking for it.
And when testing VDJ with software djs, the absolute mode is the one most get annoyed about.
Seems VDJ timecode works great (and to a long extent you agree), its just the implementation of modes that are not the way many users of other software expect.
In other words, someone using VDJ all the time, might never even be bugged by some of this.
1. ABSOLUTE MODE
But, I totally agree that ABSOLUTE MODE should be EXACTLY what you say:
- 100% vinyl control, ALL positional features of VDJ disabled.
This mode is for djs that want to only use their turntables to control VDJ, and such things as loop, auto bpm should be disabled. Pure vinyl, and no positional aids from VDJ.
Now, relative mode, and smart mode (that you dont mention) are hybrid modes where VDJ features such as loop and cue etc works, in some way.. Controlled by software and smart features for the vinyl (such as jumping needle to cue point, anti-skip, and so on)
So totally agree with you on that Anewsome.
I'm no vinyl dj, but I know quite a few, and donno why VDJ dont have absolute mode this way (?)
2. Pitch
Gotta agree with you on that too.
But does VDJ really behave like that?
In absoulute mode I mean. This goes back to point (1) Absolute mode.
Because in smart mode, auto bpm and such features will of course make absolute pitch impossible, as soon as you pitch in software. That goes without saying, in any software.
But absolute mode should not..
So, PITCH PROBLEM & ABSOLUTE MODE is the same problem, I believe... Same issue.
That it does not work like it should. NO possitional aids.
anewsome wrote :
Well this is because the song played until the end and I moved the song position back to the start with the mouse.
- Now this is a feature I believe :)
But maybe its not a good one.. It can be a part of a smart mode, as a feature.
But in absolute mode it should work like you want it to.
anewsome wrote :
If I am playing a song and I disengage TCV, the song should continue playing AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED.
- Does it not?? This must be a bug if it doesnt, or some setting you have wrong.
Because, of course it should.
anewsome wrote :
This is a LIFESAVER in SSL, when one of your turntables dies out or you break a needle, or 1 of your turntables becomes otherwise not usable. In SSL you can assign the turntable to control either deck
- Now this is possible in VDJ too ;) You can use one turntable with timecode, to control both virtual decks ;) By switching in skin from one side to the other, or by keyboard shortcut.
So this feature is a "lifesaver" in VDJ too ...
anewsome wrote :
The fact that TCV just stopped on me last night, the fact that sometimes when I start up VDJ tcv works on both sides, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I have to fiddle with settings, this all feels buggy to me. In SSL I plug the box in (program started or not) and it works.
- is this on the SSL box soundcard ?
Of course it works great with SSL, its their soundcard ;)
It might still be a bit buggy in VDJ maybe? Donno.. But have never heard such issues from users using other cards.
anewsome wrote :
So there is few things that I think would improve TCV performance in VDJ. Admitedly, it would make the TCV control more like SSL's and that the developers and Stephane could really care less how things work in SSL but I'm giving my opinion here on why I think "THAT WAY IS BETTER", it performs as close to real vinyl as possible in absolute mode and it does sensible things by default in relative mode.
I can assure you that Steph, Atmoix and Numark would want the same.. ;)
I think your very long informative thread boils down to ONE issue in particular:
- ABSOLUTE MODE
And your not the first to say VDJ does not have it all 100% like absolute mode should be.
Maybe it needs a bit of stripping down.. Less smart features from VDJ, and more pure vinyl control.
Most users here, seems to love the smart mode, where VDJ and timecode work together, but that doesnt say that some user still want the raw vinyl feel, where software features are mostly disabled.
Hopefully this is something to be taken into account, if it does not work like it should.
But again, I'm NO vinyl dj, so I cant really say I'm an expert on this... ;)
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 9:26 pm
anewsome
I think it's more than just a post about absolute mode, since really, I never use this mode in SSL. I use relative mode in SSL and the software can change the position of the song via cue points, loops, etc. But the tempo slider always does what it's supposed to and the song plays always if the needle is on the record and it's moving. Basically it just works the way I like it to work and the way I think it should work. I can see how DJs who buy VDJ would not really like a real absolute mode, since it would disable most of the features of the software if it were a real absolute mode.
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 10:01 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
We need you back as VIP and beta tester ;)
My wish for the future..
You know better than most, what club vinyl djs want..
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 10:19 pm
anewsome
dj-in-norway wrote :
We need you back as VIP and beta tester ;)
My wish for the future..
You know better than most, what club vinyl djs want..
We need you back as VIP and beta tester ;)
My wish for the future..
You know better than most, what club vinyl djs want..
Put the word in for me. I'm sure whatever reason Stephane had for kicking me out, he's over by now. Let's just get on with making the product better. As critical as I can be, it's all about improving the product and hopefully he and the rest of you guys can see that.
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 10:23 pm
Man-Tk
dj-in-norway : You can't use one turntable with timecode, to control both virtual decks !!!
because If you are playing a song and disengage TCV, the song should continue playing AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED. for the moment it's impossible -
because If you are playing a song and disengage TCV, the song should continue playing AT EXACTLY THE SAME SPEED. for the moment it's impossible -
Inviato Sat 14 Oct 06 @ 11:22 pm
Superstom
Anewsome,
thanks for your time to make this long post. I agree with you on most points.
The only thing is that I don't get is that point 3 (always play when turntable is spinning) is contrary to point 1 (absolute mode). I should expect that if you have a total absolute mode that you can't "browse" through the song using the mouse. If you want to go to the start of the song, you will have to use your tonearm. If you should have a real absolute mode and the track is at its end and you should click with your mouse on teh start of the song it should go immediately to the end of the song again, while that is where your needle is.
For the pitch slider: Do you have set "Auto pitch reset" set to disabled and "Auto pitch match" disabled? If that is teh case then your pitch slider in VDJ should always be the same as the slider on your turntable. I have experienced that sometimes you need to slide it a little up or down to get both sliders in sync again. I don't know what the reason is.
Ewout
thanks for your time to make this long post. I agree with you on most points.
The only thing is that I don't get is that point 3 (always play when turntable is spinning) is contrary to point 1 (absolute mode). I should expect that if you have a total absolute mode that you can't "browse" through the song using the mouse. If you want to go to the start of the song, you will have to use your tonearm. If you should have a real absolute mode and the track is at its end and you should click with your mouse on teh start of the song it should go immediately to the end of the song again, while that is where your needle is.
For the pitch slider: Do you have set "Auto pitch reset" set to disabled and "Auto pitch match" disabled? If that is teh case then your pitch slider in VDJ should always be the same as the slider on your turntable. I have experienced that sometimes you need to slide it a little up or down to get both sliders in sync again. I don't know what the reason is.
Ewout
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 4:09 pm
apopsisdj
Give me some time to read this long post and give you my points. (very busy today)
The only i can say for now is that i can work quite good and fast with tcv/tccd and 4.x
There are just some things you need to avoid to get the best results.
The only i can say for now is that i can work quite good and fast with tcv/tccd and 4.x
There are just some things you need to avoid to get the best results.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 4:39 pm
DJ Cyder
Ok its done welcome back Arron
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 4:54 pm
Superstom
Anewsome,
that is good news. Congratulations being back on the vip level again. Please help the team to get the tcv implementation even better than ssl.
Ewout
also some celebration for myself, this is my 2000th post.
that is good news. Congratulations being back on the vip level again. Please help the team to get the tcv implementation even better than ssl.
Ewout
also some celebration for myself, this is my 2000th post.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 5:00 pm
anewsome
Superstom wrote :
The only thing is that I don't get is that point 3 (always play when turntable is spinning) is contrary to point 1 (absolute mode)
this point was a relative mode issue, not absolute. if the song position is at the end in absolute mode, nothing should be able to bring it back to the start except picking up the tonearm and moving it to the begining of the record. so yes you are correct, i should have been more clear.
the problem i am talking about in that point is that if vdj plays a song to the end with tcv, and you move the position of the song back to the begining of the song while the tcv is still moving, the song just sits there until you stop the tcv, wait a sec and then restart it.
same goes for loading a new song *while* the tcv is still spinning from the last song. you load the song and the track just sits there, UNTIL YOU STOP THE TCV AND RESTART IT. for quick mixing, this is a pain. quick mixing or not, it's still broken behavoir in my opinion.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 5:11 pm
Superstom
anewsome,
I was assuming that you only would like to have an absolute mode and only use this. So therfore I found it quite strange. Now I know that you would like to have and also use more modes, like relative, as well.
In the very first implementation it was as you described. The "feature" that you first need to stop and start the turntable was implemented later. At first, when you loaded a song it would play right away, but it wasn't yet loaded, so it caused skips or even a complete hangup. Therefore they implemented the need for the start and stop of the turntable if you load a new song or move to the start of the song again. Maybe this could be re-considerred, or an option could be added to the setup to switch it on or off.
Ewout
I was assuming that you only would like to have an absolute mode and only use this. So therfore I found it quite strange. Now I know that you would like to have and also use more modes, like relative, as well.
In the very first implementation it was as you described. The "feature" that you first need to stop and start the turntable was implemented later. At first, when you loaded a song it would play right away, but it wasn't yet loaded, so it caused skips or even a complete hangup. Therefore they implemented the need for the start and stop of the turntable if you load a new song or move to the start of the song again. Maybe this could be re-considerred, or an option could be added to the setup to switch it on or off.
Ewout
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 5:26 pm
listen2
i do the same thing but i always take the needle off and the needle drop actions then starts the new track, but what your saying is that you dont want to have to that. In some ways i perfer that since the song loaded would start all by itself and cause you to wind back the track anyways.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 5:30 pm
anewsome
Superstom wrote :
For the pitch slider: Do you have set "Auto pitch reset" set to disabled and "Auto pitch match" disabled? If that is teh case then your pitch slider in VDJ should always be the same as the slider on your turntable. I have experienced that sometimes you need to slide it a little up or down to get both sliders in sync again. I don't know what the reason is.
Ewout
Ewout
I do have both disabled. The REAL problem is that when using TCV, VDJ will allow pitch changes by both the software and the TCV itself so there is always the possiblilty that they can get out of sync. Even with both disabled and being careful to only use the slider on the turntable, they can still get out of sync.
This happens because intuitively I set the pitch slider close to where it needs to be, prior to loading the song, then load the song, then start the TCV. This doesn't work because in order for the VDJ sliders to remain somewhat in sync, you need to have "auto pitch reset" and "auto pitch match" disabled as you say, AND you should only be changing pitch WHILE VDJ IS ACTIVELY READING TCV. Once you start moving the slider around, while VDJ is not actively reading timecode, things get out of sync.
I just tested this with both disabled right now. I'm looking at my turntable which is locked on 0% (m3d quartz locked) and while the record is playing, VDJ is showing the track pitched to +1.3%. This can not, does not and will not happen in SSL because SSL ALWAYS gets it's information from where to pitch the track from the actual spinning record itself when the timecode is enabled. It doesn't care where the previous track was pitched to. Whether or not you moved the slider while the record was stopped, before you loaded the next one, or anything. It always gets the pitch from the spinning record. And it does it VERY fast, evidenced by if you brake a record with the stop button on your turntable in SSL, the bpm on the screen will usually drop around 2bpm. That's how fast it's calculating and reacting to the pitch from the spinning record.
There is no option in VDJ currently to make it ALWAYS get pitch from the TCV, since the program ALWAYS allows pitch changes from the TCV and the software simultaneously, which of course makes sense because MANY features depend on being able to change the pitch of the track.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 5:37 pm
Superstom
I noticed that as well. When you move the slider of the turntable when your timecode is not playing, VDJ get confused, when you start the timecode again. I noticed this when I sterted using tcv. After that i try to avoid moving the slider when the deck is not playing. So I have my own workaround.
An option in the config menu "Always lock to tcv / tccd pitch" could solve this. With this option set, the slider within vdj should be disabled, also the keyboard shortcuts for the pitch slider should not work and also the match / beat lock will not work.
The question would be if the pitch bend / pitch nudge buttons should work or not. At first I would say: Do not work, but the bend / nudge buttons are handy sometimes.
Ewout
An option in the config menu "Always lock to tcv / tccd pitch" could solve this. With this option set, the slider within vdj should be disabled, also the keyboard shortcuts for the pitch slider should not work and also the match / beat lock will not work.
The question would be if the pitch bend / pitch nudge buttons should work or not. At first I would say: Do not work, but the bend / nudge buttons are handy sometimes.
Ewout
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 6:11 pm
apopsisdj
anewsome wrote :
First, there is no real "absolute mode" in VDJ. Absolute means EXACTLY that. Serato has implemented this correctly. Pick a song and a spot on the record, that spot on the record will ALWAYS point to the same spot in that song not matter what (unless you change the vinyl offset in setup). The sticker on the record will always bring you back to the same point. CUE POINTS should not work in absolute mode. LOOPS should not work in absolute mode. Autobeatmatching, automixing, clone deck and most of that AUTO stuff that is contrary to a real absolute mode, should not work. They all do in VDJ and that is in my opinion, a bad "Absolute" mode implementation. The only "auto' things that should work are non-positional type things like keylock and auto gain. Any feature that can change the position of the song in relation to the record should not work in absolute mode (as it does correctly in SSL).
First, there is no real "absolute mode" in VDJ. Absolute means EXACTLY that. Serato has implemented this correctly. Pick a song and a spot on the record, that spot on the record will ALWAYS point to the same spot in that song not matter what (unless you change the vinyl offset in setup). The sticker on the record will always bring you back to the same point. CUE POINTS should not work in absolute mode. LOOPS should not work in absolute mode. Autobeatmatching, automixing, clone deck and most of that AUTO stuff that is contrary to a real absolute mode, should not work. They all do in VDJ and that is in my opinion, a bad "Absolute" mode implementation. The only "auto' things that should work are non-positional type things like keylock and auto gain. Any feature that can change the position of the song in relation to the record should not work in absolute mode (as it does correctly in SSL).
Let me say i don't agree with your point of view.
Yes the Absolute mode has -more- than usual options but these are by design and not bugs.
You know in all systems there is always something you have to avoid else you'll have trouble. Eg. in your mixer or cd player there is a power button, you know you can't press this button when music is playing else music will stop. Your car has a brake but you know when to use it.
In vdj yes, absolute mode becomes temporary "smart" (in real time) as you're allowed -but not forced- to use software controls like pitch, loops, cues etc when timecode is the "master"
I myself didnt like this at first but now i can say this is a -PLUS-, for example if you are in absolute mode and need a quick loop you're allowed. Then just move the needle and timecode is the "master" again...
Do you need real absolute ? safe behaviour ? just use a simple skin without sync/beatlock etc and remove all these actions (loops/cues/pitch) from your shortcuts too...
You can easily switch skins/shortcuts on the fly for different setups...
Now what are the real issues or bugs or wrong designed :
- Wrong default setting : "Antiskip" on
Antiskip makes the damage in absolute mode, this is a wrong option for absolute and should
not allowed or greyed out for AB mode.
Just disable it.
- Timecode disengage, and pitch resets not remembered.
This is a bug and dev staff is aware of it, i myself posted it.
Now about the "not always working" timecode vs ssl always working...
Its because vdj has so many options and allow different setups/soundcards.
Just use always the same soundcard eg. u46dj like you bought it bundled with vdj, like ssl comes with its box and you'll be ok. Again its because of the more options.
I'm convinced for this, and lately i started to ignore posts like "my soundblaster doesnt work, so vdj is bad..."
My point is: are you a pro ? you make money ? get a pro and trusted card with good drivers.
See the example with the behringer bcd.. really bad soundcard/drivers inside.
Its not vdj's fault, but some can blame vdj for this.
Noone can blame ssl because its not supported right ?
My solution ? maybe i could use this device as controller but never as a soundcard.
So its up to the user what options to use or not, but i agree this needs experience.
There is room to simplify or change some options in vdj setup overall.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 7:17 pm
blazemonger
apopsis wrote :
Just use always the same soundcard eg. u46dj like you bought it bundled with vdj, like ssl comes with its box and you'll be ok. Again its because of the more options.
I'm convinced for this, and lately i started to ignore posts like "my soundblaster doesnt work, so vdj is bad..."
My point is: are you a pro ? you make money ? get a pro and trusted card with good drivers.
I'm convinced for this, and lately i started to ignore posts like "my soundblaster doesnt work, so vdj is bad..."
My point is: are you a pro ? you make money ? get a pro and trusted card with good drivers.
Which is exactly why SSL come with it's own audio interface. It gives the developer a way to make sure there's as little hassle as possible with this part of the package. And it also controls cost. In fact VDJ would be more expensive if sold with a similar package (sofwtare/audio-interface of equal quality as SL1/2xTCCD and 2x TCV).
Selling a software with many options package is fine, nothing wrong with that, but SSL took a different approach and targets a different audience. As things stand I do not see how VDJ could even consider being able to cut into SSL's marketshare because it simply lacks some key elements in the way it works. hacking SL1 support into VDJ is not gonna change that..
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 8:33 pm
anewsome
apopsis wrote :
In vdj yes, absolute mode becomes temporary "smart" (in real time) as you're allowed -but not forced- to use software controls like pitch, loops, cues etc when timecode is the "master"
I myself didnt like this at first but now i can say this is a -PLUS-, for example if you are in absolute mode and need a quick loop you're allowed. Then just move the needle and timecode is the "master" again...
Do you need real absolute ? safe behaviour ? just use a simple skin without sync/beatlock etc and remove all these actions (loops/cues/pitch) from your shortcuts too...
You can easily switch skins/shortcuts on the fly for different setups...
In vdj yes, absolute mode becomes temporary "smart" (in real time) as you're allowed -but not forced- to use software controls like pitch, loops, cues etc when timecode is the "master"
I myself didnt like this at first but now i can say this is a -PLUS-, for example if you are in absolute mode and need a quick loop you're allowed. Then just move the needle and timecode is the "master" again...
Do you need real absolute ? safe behaviour ? just use a simple skin without sync/beatlock etc and remove all these actions (loops/cues/pitch) from your shortcuts too...
You can easily switch skins/shortcuts on the fly for different setups...
so we agree that vdj does not have a real absolute mode by design. this is the way they want it to work, so that's how it works. i can see that point of view and as long as i know that there is no real absolute mode and their won't be any real absolute mode coming, then i'm ok with that.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 9:48 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
What worried me most about Anewsomes thread, was the thing about pitch going back to zero, when TC was engaged, and therefor making ONE turntable use ("life saver") not possible.....
Does Anewsome have wrong setting?
Or does VDJ not work for that?
If last, why not? Is that by design? seems odd
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 9:58 pm
anewsome
apopsis wrote :
Just use always the same soundcard eg. u46dj like you bought it bundled with vdj, like ssl comes with its box and you'll be ok. Again its because of the more options.
I'm convinced for this, and lately i started to ignore posts like "my soundblaster doesnt work, so vdj is bad..."
My point is: are you a pro ? you make money ? get a pro and trusted card with good drivers.
See the example with the behringer bcd.. really bad soundcard/drivers inside.
Its not vdj's fault, but some can blame vdj for this.
Noone can blame ssl because its not supported right ?
My solution ? maybe i could use this device as controller but never as a soundcard.
So its up to the user what options to use or not, but i agree this needs experience.
There is room to simplify or change some options in vdj setup overall.
I'm convinced for this, and lately i started to ignore posts like "my soundblaster doesnt work, so vdj is bad..."
My point is: are you a pro ? you make money ? get a pro and trusted card with good drivers.
See the example with the behringer bcd.. really bad soundcard/drivers inside.
Its not vdj's fault, but some can blame vdj for this.
Noone can blame ssl because its not supported right ?
My solution ? maybe i could use this device as controller but never as a soundcard.
So its up to the user what options to use or not, but i agree this needs experience.
There is room to simplify or change some options in vdj setup overall.
Am I a pro? Yes. I have no problem paying for pro level gear. That's why I bought a package with a high-end sound card and software bundled, it's called Serato Scratch Live and it's worked flawlessy for me. Now if you're telling me that I can't expect my Serato card to work as well with VDJ as it does with Serato, then yes, that seems reasonable too. Atomix doesn't make that card so I can't expect it to work as good with VDJ as it does with Serato.
I have no problem shelling out the cash for a u64dj. I've actually tried on several occasions to do just that. There's a couple problems with this "buy a better sound card and vdj will work better" mentality. First, the card is extremely hard to find where I live. I actually didn't find a single retailer for the card in California, which means I'd have to buy it online, probably in the UK or something. Secondly, 90% of the time I DJ, it's with 2 or 3 other DJs. 90% of the time it's other Serato DJs, not because they are my friends or anything, that's because nearly everyone uses Serato in the clubs around here. 70% of the clubs have Serato boxes installed already and more are adding them it seems like every week. 0% of the clubs I play at have u64dj soundcards installed. I'll even venture to say that none of them have even ever heard of that card or VDJ. I've never, not once seen VDJ in any clubs where I live and I've played them all.
So when we talk about "buy a u64dj and your problems will be solved",.. what we're really talking about is buying a sound card that I will use about 10% of the time. Not bad I suppose. Better would be if the SL-1 worked flawless though, at least for me or anyone does the kind of gigs I do.
Not sure how we got on this topic though. This thread used to be about TCV.
Inviato Sun 15 Oct 06 @ 10:04 pm
