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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: Why does VDJ get bad-mouthed? - Page: 1

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I have been hanging out on a lot of different boards over the past few months. As an early owner of the Denon HC4500 and nothing to do with it at the moment, I have been doing a lot of reading. Anyway - I have been a Traktor user for many, many years. I have never used anything else. The only reason I have been looking - automix capabilities and video. Anyway - why do some people view Virtual DJ more as a toy software, and not a real contender when it comes to professional DJ use? I have heard things about the sound engine being inferior, the general feel of the program, etc?

But, then I also hear so many great things about the software from the folks on this board. Obviously for those that are doing video, nothing compares right now (well, you can count PC VJ, but that's basically the same program anyway). But how about audio? Are any of you previous Traktor users? Are any of you previous SSL users? Just wondering.....

I love the sound that I get out of Traktor - every club that I have worked at, as well as within in my own mobile set-up/speakers, it sounds great. Have never had an issue with sound. I am still using 3.2 which is completely stable. I think that I have had it freeze up 1 time in the past year, and that was it. Now, 3.3 is another story, but I didn't apply the upgrade. I need stability - and having been a digital DJ for about 7 years now, I never want to be at a paid gig and second guessing my software.

I definitely have my eye on V DJ - even if I don't end up preferring it over another software - once MAC gets stable, I am going to but a pro user license. I just asked the above questions - because it was something that I was thinking about as a current Traktor user that has been reading a ton of forums lately.

Thanks!
 
Inviato Wed 19 Dec 07 @ 8:49 am
From my observation, the Forum (imo) is best way to communicate to get support or ask random questions in regards to the software. Yes the software has soooo many cool features, and the capablilities are endless, but I think since you really need to dial it in to get max performance, many people arent as computer savy as others and get fustrated trying to set it up, and put thier fustrations on the forum. Yes we do have support and we can open tickets, but many people (including myself) want instant answers because I think my situation is more important than the next guy. Now the software is awesome!!!! If you figure it out, and dial it in, there is nothing better out there, especially when you take into consideration the video capabilities. I put questions and concerns on the forum, becasue many of other user probably have the same experience with the situation. I think the forum is there for the good and bad. If you have concerns voice them, that's the only way things will get addressed. People shouldnt get mad when something bad is said about the software. In reality people never speak up when things go well, it's like going to a store, you get great customer service each and everytime you go in there. But how many times do you write a letter to the company thanking them or speaking to the manager and telling them their associate did a great job today? But if something goes wrong, people do not hesitate to voice their anger and fustration. I think the same goes with VDJ. There are so many user out there that will never post, but they are happy users.
 
i am an ex Traktor user

these opinions are peculiar to me ......it would be hard to get opinions from someone more peculiar , but still you can try ....

i think Vdj got a bad rap in part because there are so many illegal copies out there

another possible reason ..... i think the focus has been too narrow .......only recently Mac versions , for instance , and i think they have a huge bias towards all things " house " .....less understanding of what mobil djs do for instance ....

i also believe they are a little cliquish or defensive at times ....i've asked for certain things that Traktor does and instead of getting a thanks for the suggestion , you get challenged as to the validity ...... i think that is a serious failing .....obviously if a major maker already does it , then it's already a valid feature to have ........

they have done some gimmicky things also , and i think that works against them , a lot......the spinning turntables wasting space on screen , the cover art ......... stuff like that seems cheap and unprofessional i think

those items above address the bad rep issues , for the other items .....

i think the sound engine is fine ........ the automix is nowhere even close to Traktor at the moment , but we believe they are working to restore the 2 deck automix in the next release (5.1) ...... the current one deck set up works well , but they need 2 decks

for video i think it works well as much as i currently know ..... i don't scratch video or use any controllers at the moment .......the alternatives for video cost much more

the user community and forums are much friendlier and more helpful than Traktor .......

for me if they would just get all the features of Traktor's record case i would be very happy .....

i tell people if you only do audio get Traktor ..... if you wanna do video also get Vdj .......
 
kkorpus

hi mate, if you haven't already got yourself a demo version give it a go and give vdj a bit of a work out and see what you think for comparison on the other software you maybe using.

i personnally saw vdj years ago when it was in its infancy but decided at the time it was'nt quite what i wanted and after using other programmes for quite a few years stumbled back on vdj with its video capabilities at the turn of the year, tried it out and after a few hiccups in the begining which were totally my fault,has been running sweet with the help off the guys on the forums, i haven't got any sound problems that i or the general public can percieve. to me many problems that crop up are user induced and are quickly remedied with help from here in the forums or are quickly taken on board by the dev team etc and a fix is usually brought out quite quickly in most cases, as in life some take a little longer than others but on the whole we are well looked after from them..

anyway if you decide to go pro with vdj in the future you can look forward to lots of pluggins and skins to compliment your own style... hope that helps


Tayla

 
Hi kkorpos,
I have been using VDJ now for around 3-4 years for professional mobile disco/karaoke and club work. Prior to purchasing VDJ I toyed with many other products including Traktor,PCDJ and Mixmiester. I plumped for VDJ because of it's stability, flexibility and ease of use, (It's the closest you are going to get to using Vinyl or Cd). The sound quality is excellent, but of course like with any music software that is going to be mainly down to which sound card you are running it through. The Support, Help and forums that atomix provides is superb, plus the software is constantly revised and updated, and they actually listen to the views of the end users when making these revisions !!.

Alot of DJ software thats around is targeted at consumers that might know "a little about computers", much of these programs are cut down versions of software which are designed to be used in a recording studio enviroment , (nice if you wanna be a record producer), however in my opinion VDJ has been designed from the ground upwards to be a totaly "Live" software tool for existing DJ's, and those that wish to learn about and become a DJ.


Matt


 
I think a big reason why people don't think it's a serious contender is due to the following:

1. All the cracked copy's, lets face it if you look at any tin pot DJ out there they are all on cracked copy's of VDJ.

2. I just bought a A&H 3D there are no VDJ skins for the mixer only traktor and ableton, what do VDJ have? the herc (nice)

3. The problems experienced due to snags in the software however a rev usally is'nt far behind, but even still.

4. The record case, this is the big on for me. If you look at pcdj or traktor there alot better especially tracktor it has so much info in the case the resolution is better two & pcdj you can change the font sizes etc.

RIGHT! I use this software out over any other so all said it is an all rounder eg vid, kar & mp3 it's the one if your more than just a club dj. Look at pcdj now there history so far behind with no video or upto date software.

You can do video with traktor now i think i'm going to get the traktor skins out for the 3D!

 
unfortunately the tinpots and there cracked copies are legion ....bad for the image

i'm glad someone else mentioned the recordcase
 
Personally, I hate the fact that something like software would be the talk of the town. Maybe it's my understanding that if you like something and it works for you then use it. Don't go off the opinion of the masses. We live in a world of limings or monkey see, monkey do. It could also be the simplestic look of it and all the pretty colors. The illegal copying may have an affect but tractor has the same problem. My humble opinion would be the monkey see, monkey do and the fact that it does take a little work to get it work. Don't get me wrong when I say the simplesity of all the features ( bells and whisles ). VDJ did a fantastic job of allowing the database to be stored on the users drive. I love the fact that I can edit my database from any computer. Plus practice time on a flex schedule between systems.

I'm a traktor user just before VDJ came along. I also have PCDJ red that I hated and never used. I don't like the look of RED but tractor is simple to use and has basic features that very good for techno but lacked the hip hop features required to smooth out some mixes.

Your not going to get a new person who doesn't know "JACK" about djing using tractor because he would actually have to learn to beat match. VDJ is was designed for every one in mind and that may piss many hardcore "turntablist" off. A DJ has to physically manipulate the music to be legit in this industry. That's the club standard and sterio type out there and sometimes in this forum board. We as DJs take to a level that its almost a FRATERNATY and the best fraternity must use SLL... all the others are a joke right.

Lets look at some of the people that could be starting the rumours... Club DJ's, Techno djs, or young people who think they know everything. Many high profile club DJs get sponsored and who is the biggest dj software promoter. The others club djs use it because it reliable for the turntable and decks. Most clubs would have a effects processor in the house mixer or decks so no need for software gimmicks. As far techno go, they require basic effects to tell a story. The " blue collar " DJs , the moble djs want something reliable to use and go by what their need is. The average moble DJ usually buys what he needs and not what he likes. Until he can get an equipment that he likes and it suites pretty much everything at once, usually the more hands free the better.
 
Some of the main reasons why VDJ has had, and in some peoples minds still has a bad reputation.

1) Peoples inability to accept that things change with the times. Whilst most DJ software is generally the same now as it was several years ago (some make major changes and release them as a separate product or charge for the upgrade), Virtual DJ (Atomix) has been very fast and generous with updates.

The Virtual DJ that we are using now (5.0 - 5.1) is very different from the VDJ that the users of other DJ software criticize, this is because they don't have the time/will to keep downloading demos (of all the "other" programs) when they themselves are content with what they are using.

People have commented on the look of VDJ > Now we have a very nice Pro skin (and collection of others)
People have commented on the sound quality > Now the sound is rock solid
People have commented on the old website > Now we have a nice one
People have commented on the controller support > Now Virtual DJ supports many (Including Denon, Numark and soon more)

The list could go on, but the memories of what VDJ was during its early days still colours peoples opinion of what it IS today, so my advice would be to download the demo and interact with the people on this forum if you want balanced news.

Some people still talk about areas of where Virtual could be more professional, but guess what? I know their is a 5.1 update just around the corner offering another impressive list of changes.

No DJ software will ever be perfect, but I have a feeling that VDJ is aspiring to it and making a lot of ground very quickly, and separating the facts from the out of date propaganda still circulating, VDJ is taken seriously by companies such as NI and Rane because of its strong and quickly increasing market share (unless you've travelled, don't say that nobody uses it).

2) The cracked users are a double edged sword, they have largely contributed towards the great popularity VDJ has, and through that generated sales (although to what degree we'll never know), whilst on the other hand they themselves are usually "basic" DJ's who think the dual waveform and accurate BPM will make them a better, this creates an image that VDJ is a cheap program and associated only with wannabe DJ's.

3) "Everyone’s our customer" Virtual DJ means so many different things to so many different people.
It is used by many: Mobile DJ's, Bedroom DJ's, Club DJ's, Video DJ's, Scratch DJ's and a few big name stadium rockers.

This makes development a huge task, because whilst one user wants a perfect Timecoded vinyl experience, another wants improved karaoke support.

There is always a list of things to do because of the very broad market VDJ aims to serve, so it struggles to ever look the best within a single area and is thus considered by some as a "jack of all trades" program. But such a conclusion comes from using software which does little, but does it very well. The reason why so many people are here is because they want the ultimate DJ program, and VDJ always looks like its the closest in being that (despite VDJ needing a face lift in certain areas).

4) They are just jealous, because there's a lot of reasons to be cheerful at this camp.
 
My experience is that the people who have negative feelings towards VDJ are other DJ's who have already spent too much money on the software that they saw first. I looked at and demo'd several other softwares before buying. When my other DJ friends stop out and see me when I'm working they are jealous. I think this fosters regret in the product that they are using, and to justify their mis-spent funds, they decide that there must be problems with VDJ.

Of course, as always, I could be wrong.
 
I've read some pretty good assumtions here but so far kkorpos Hasn't piped back up since he asked his question.

Have we answered your question to your statisfaction?
 
When you're on top, you gotta expect people to take shots at you.

The longer they wait, the farther ahead we get.
Let them wait...lool


 
What a post, this has got to be one of the best posts I've seen, anyway

I just want to put my two pennies worth in, I believe a big part of it comes down to Jealousy.

They see what VirtualDJ can do, the free and regular Updates we get from the dev team and the community we all belong to. This reaction is just natural and instead of trying to understand it, they just insult the software and us.

Jimmy b

 
Great posting... I recently started work in a brand new bar, they had a dvd player locked away in a room upstairs, and three screens. They were intending to just show movies at night.

I mentioned how good it would be to have the dvd player in the dj booth, and possibly a yellow plug!

The next week I arrived for work, there it was, dvd player and yellow plug.

The following week I arrived, they had replaced the cdj 1000's with vdj 1000's and a video mixer.

How much did all this cost, I thought. My vdj setup does all that this setup can do and more. I'm scared to use it now they have spent so much on their gear!


Best Regards
 
good job kkorpus on creating an excellent thread which is open to constructive debate.

since the history of the dj came be a kind of iconic thing with possible superstatus possibilities since the mid 80's, any punk-kid could be a 'dj'. similar to every kid in america dreams to be a basketball, baseball or football star (and their parents hoping for that as well). 6 degrees of separation apply here, you got decks, a box of music and an ego. does that make you a dj? well, sorta but not really. djing is not that difficult in truth, but it takes a certain amount of skill. depending on the style you play, beatmatching is only the first step. IMO if you cant beatmatch in your sleep, you're no dj at all. but then again im a house dj so im biased to that.

second step, in the late 90's we had an influx of software for producing. now the scene is falling apart and blowing up at the same time. anyone can download some warez, make some noise and now people call themselves producers and have no idea about sound theory or production/mastery technique. the principle 'hey, that sounds cool, turn it up' is not something that makes you a producer.

so what we have here is a software that takes alot of the skill out of mixing (beatmatching more specifically). IMO this is not a problem. i can layer 4 decks on top of each other (but dont play techno anymore) and can beatmatch in 5 seconds flat. i have nothing to prove to anyone and couldnt care less if im questioned to be a real dj. so i really dont care about that, so i'm not afraid to push the sync button and take my time doing other things than trying to find the beatmatch.

negativity to vdj seems to come from people who lack the ability to actually argue their point properly. it lacks circumstantial evidence and ends up being slandery. take one attempt to wage a properly constructed argument and you'll see it goes nowhere. you cant dissuade a fool from being a fool by calling him a fool because you are no longer arguing properly either, so you just sunk to their level. at some point a lost argument is just better to avoid.

good arguments come from two people who disagree and create valid points. in the end, two mature debaters learn a bit about each other and possibly have the opportunity to learn something new and maybe change their mind a bit. at the very least, they shake hands at the end and agree to disagree. no slandery there.

this ability comes from mature people, and people who have been down many roads. where my argument focuses is that you can tell the difference between wannabe punk-djs and up-and-coming djs. its not a bad thing to start somewhere, but it's bad to take some eqo which you havent earned. up-and-comers ask questions and listen to opinions and assimilate them for a while until they have personal experience to back it up. punks think they know everything and just talk alot of bullwocky and arent interested in more experienced opinions.

the ironic part is that vdj can make a dj out of anyone who has little to no skill, which in the end may be a larger reason for why so many people dont like it. if you dont have prior experience baking bread and were given a bread machine, do you call the bread machine crap because your first recipe in it turned out bad? a professional breadmaker might also look in disdain at it because it circumvents all their years of experience. but after some time, they appreciate it for what it can do because it saves them time for other more important things.

my conclusion is this, perhaps those who dont like vdj have valid opinions. if they argue their opinions with well-learned fact, i appreciate and respect their opinion. vdj is by far from perfect as many have pointed out. but saying that it 'sucks' immediatley means i will disregard you unless its backed up. there seems to be very few people who take the time to portrat why they think vdj is a bad product. you will see this in a majority of forums on any topic. filtering out the nonsense really just means that there arent that many 'dislikers of vdj' worth taking seriously. just a bunch of egoist kids that don't know jack.


 
let me tell you a real story, few years ago I was shopping for a new controller and I wanted to try it on before I spent my money on it, so I took my laptop in to a popular dj store in Chicago frequented by big name Djs and as I was testing the controllers everybody came around to look at it and one smart guy seeing the beat lock feature, dismissed it right away as being just a wanna be dj solution, like I wasn't a real dj, like I didn't know what I was doing and I got pist and told him he is an ignorant, then he got pist and said that this toy will never be as good as his technique developed over 10 years of practice, at that point I dropped the bomb and I challenged him right there in the store which had a dj setup in place and lots of vinyls.
He picked a dozen vinyls and got on it showing off his craft, in this time I got ready my cue list to match whatever he was playing and after he was done I got to show off my digitally assisted skill and he had the last words "why did I practice so long?!", he was defeated thanks to the beat lock which gave me time to do a lot more other noticeable things then matching the beat and all this with a Herc MKII so...

YES THE BEAT LOCK AND MASTER TEMPO ARE SCARRING THE PURISTS AND PEOPLE ARE STAYING AWAY OF THE THINGS THAT THEY ARE AFRAID OF.

Other points I want to make:

VDJ IS TOO CHEAP for the purists, if they would have to shed 2k for it will be much desirable for the elitists, they can't believe that a $300 software is that good that could be trusted.

VDJ does too much and has a lack of a reliable dedicated club quality controller, but is getting there via TCV.

When I say too much is about video and karaoke, which really requires a hefty budget to sustain it at club level and I mean pro built computer liquid cooled, with scsi drives with raid, pro memory, pro video card, video monitors, video mixer and huge video files.

Club video shows are suitable for concerts and promo and that is for the big name Djs and big name Djs do Pioneer only which cost about the same as a VDJ video club installation and most of the Djs know how to use the Pio, but not too many Djs know the inns and outs of VDJ.

Happy spinning!
 
i remember in the early 80's going to buy a keyboard and the shop owner scoffed it 'you arent making real music'...

theres a different between purist and closeminded in my mind...
 
Paz75 wrote :
i remember in the early 80's going to buy a keyboard and the shop owner scoffed it 'you arent making real music'...

theres a different between purist and closeminded in my mind...



When I played Guitar in Blues Bands I went to a friends Heavy Metal Band's rehearsal. When I mentioned Keyboards - They Scoffed - Then I said one simple statement and they had No comeback:

Even Ozzy Uses Keyboards.

Another Example of Closemindedness:

Same Senario - Except I was at a Jam Session at Chicago's Diner In Toronto, (near John st on Queen st west) and The band was cranking it up and the guy beside me looks over and says "Pretty Good, But I wonder how good they are without the keyboard playing everything?"

I asked him if he Knew that even Ray Charles played and Electronic keyboard?

He didn;t say anything more to me.

Point is - VDJ is great - but it's not for everyone.

 
I know since everyones beat matching now it has taken the edge of it, I am now having to learn to scratch to take it to the next level and carry on getting booked. Before beat matching was good enough by far
 
On the subject of software ease and automation:
While this may be a factual point, the reality is that with the incorporation of software we have been able to become more creative with the time that has been saved. We can now use effects live and offer mixing skills that are only possible by pre organizing sets with dvj's and hot cue clips. Having discussed the real time creation of sets with Pioneer's DJ Roonie G, it takes him 2 hrs to create a 20 minute set, something that we can do LIVE for the most part. Thats a lot of home work guys.
We have some really good Vj's here that have made demo reels and this is a clear demonstration of what I am saying.

Personally I don't do a lot with effects because of nearly constant distraction associated with mobile djing and interaction with guests.
But, even given that, I am still able to toss in enough creativity LIVE to make for a pretty interesting mix.

Another thing is that when I started video the options were very limited, costly and only supported mpeg 1.
Originally I used Winamp with the Fadeamp plug in, then moved on to Tricerasoft Elite neither of which had controller support, nor did the most expensive options such as DJ Power. Vjing was also a shaded area of questionable return, but I jumped in anyway seeing the impact of visual stimulation.

So long story short, when VDJ came along I was right there waiting and never hesitated.
Why on earth after all this time other users continue to cling to hope and wait is beyond me.
After what happened to PCDJ users who waited for FiX forever and then for Vj, you gotta be pretty foolish to stand by and wait any longer for that reason, or pride or ego or this nonsense that Mac is going to perform any better, but what ever, let them wait.
It only lets us capture the market whether its mobile or club.
It's laughable really.

Any of you who have had people or venue owners come up with their jaw on the floor in amazement know what I mean.
And again, the longer these fools wait, the farther the rest of us get ahead and capture this market.
I have seen the demos, and beside the obvious, they lack the understanding that mixing video takes twice the creativity to capture the impact of interaction between the tracks. It's another dimension of mixing and it takes time to master. It's all about timing and mixing the audio and then the video at a time when they work together instead of train wreck.
So all of a sudden they aren't up on that high pedestal anymore, not to mention they don't have the library, and, if they do it's probably in the wrong format or resolution.

So, it's feel good time guys.
I hope you do too.

r
 
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