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Forum: General Discussion

Topic: The Sync Button......... - Page: 2

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So throughout this time I have seen couple common phrases. All related to "drifting" of tracks while using SYNC....So is it exclusive to using timecode? Because I have yet to have the opportunity to run timecode and have not noticed any track drift out of bpm. I can't wait to upgrade to anything timecode, so maybe my thoughts on SYNC would change afterward....
 
The sync is only as good as the beat grid (CBG).

If the CBG doesn't line up properly with the actual beats in the music then, as far as the software knows, everything is fine (because the CBGs of both tracks line up) but your ears will pick up the galloping beats in a fraction of a second.

If one CBG is slightly out, it will sound bad. If both are out, it will be worse!

CBGs really only work with music that has a 100% rock steady tempo.

Any fluctuations in that tempo will throw it off. Live drums, deliberate tempo change, a rip from vinyl that was off centre, speed variatation of the studio tape machine, even a bad edit by the engineer or remixer.

That's the major flaw with CBGs. They can't deal with reality.

It's the same with BPM. DJ software only gives us one tempo. Well songs are not like that.

VDJ tells me that Car Wash (Rose Royce) is 120.5 when in reality it starts around 108 and finishes around 121.

If I relied on what VDJ told me, I'd never be able to mix Car Wash into another 120 bpm track.
 
To this day, I still can't believe a button can cause such a DEBATE!

You use it? FINE! You don't? FINE! Either way, THE CHOICE IS YOURS, DO YOU!
 
The topic should of been locked immediately.
 
Agreed, people will never agree on this one, time to move on. So... PC or Mac? ;-)
 
I don't know why you would expect Car Wash, or any other song made by real musicians, to have correct bpms. Real musicians can not stay on beat perfectly, that's why it was so much harder to mix back in the day. However, us old guys have no problem with the classics, because that is how we started. Get the remix, you won't have that problem.
 
Disco music is almost impossible to mix because most of the time a live drummer can't keep the beat accurate. Plays havoc with the CBG, however when I started as a DJ in 1984 we didn't have to worry about that. A small nudge on the vinyl with my right middle finger and it was pretty much sorted.

Things move on and technology evolves, however relying on CBG and Sync for every mix won't work, just as vinyl had to be nudged a bit way back then there's no way a PC algorythm can take account of subtle changes in the tempo.

Maybe people expect too much these days?
 
Ahhh, so that's what those pitch fader things are for, lol

35 years DJing, been there, seen it, done it, moved on. :-)
 

It wasn't long ago when VDJ was considered to be the biggest cheating device in town, there's a few who are not quite up with the times who still believe this. Actually if there was a graph of DJ's with their respective gear, the left side being the manual experience the opposite being automated/pre recorded you'd find VDJ somewhere in the middle, slightly to the right of Serato.

Today there are highly paid DJ's touring the world playing pre-recorded sets either through Ableton or even on CDJ's, they simply make themselves look busy with crowd interaction/going crazy, messing around with the effects on the mixer, and possibly throwing in loops/samples on the second deck. It's true high profile DJ's are often accused of this and it's not always the case, but anybody who's been to a lot of EDM events will know this is true. When the hand position on the equipment does not match what's happening with the sound. I'm sure many of these DJ's/performers know how to mix live, but this is done for 100% mixing perfection, no chance of mistakes, lots of time for interaction and having a good time. Also there are EDM DJ's who have all of their music processed at the exact same BPM, so all they have to worry about is hitting play on beat.

I could go into the number of DJ's I've seen using the 'sync free' SSL who've just spent the night ridding wave-forms, hardly looking away from the screen, often not wearing headphones.

VDJ is a scapegoat because it's so easily accessible to anyone with a computer.
 
 
A Man and His Music wrote :
I don't know why you would expect Car Wash to have correct bpms.


I didn't say I expected the song to have correct BPMs....

What I'd like is for the software to be smart enough to realise that the beats vary and to adjust the CBG to compensate.

Denon's Engine software for example has a "raw detection" mode that places the CBG markers on the actual beats instead of a fixed distance apart.

kradcliffe wrote :
relying on CBG and Sync for every mix won't work

I don't rely on it - at all.

I learned to DJ with vinyl using rim drive decks (no pitch control) followed by belt drive decks (still no pitch control) then bought myself some direct drive hifi decks (all I could afford) which had pitch but the motor was so weak I had to throw the record in to keep it from slowing down!

Those were my own decks but I was also working clubs, which all had SL1200s so I was used to those too.

kradcliffe wrote :
there's no way a PC algorythm can take account of subtle changes in the tempo


Yes there is. Ableton Live for example can be used to straighten out any tempo variations - which is why many DJs use it, even though it's not really suited to DJing in the traditional sense.

I used it recently to "correct" Car Wash so it has a steady tempo of 116bpm all the way through.

If you heard it I bet you wouldn't even notice the change!

I still have the wobbly original too...

Steinberg's Cubase has a similar feature, but also has a tempo detection function which analyses the whole song and shows you (with a long list of BPMs) how the tempo varies throughout the entire track. You can then choose to either set the Cubase tempo to the track (i.e. variable) or the track tempo to Cubase (i.e. steady).

So it is possible for software to be smart enough - to analyse the tempo and give a true BPM, not just one averaged out figure.

It's also possible for software to correct drifting tempo and bring it in line with a fixed tempo or grid.

These are the sort of features we should have in DJ software.
 
Lets just KICKING THIS POOR OLD DEAD HORSE.......................My god look at all the flies and maggots every where............its really starting to stink up in here.

SYNC..........Either you use or you dont.........get over it already PEOPLE!!
 
Well your all making this whole bpm them a massive topic by defending yourselves which is quite funny.
 
Meh, I can do it manually if I want to... but there's a button for that now. Why buy a dog and bark yourself?
 
Because you'd have to buy it food, train it, clean up after it, take it for walks, pay vets bills......

:-)
 
@Charlie, amazes me how these "superstars" are total crap at recovering their show when something fails... moral of the story is don't go with one cd pre recorded for all of the show, lol.

They should have at least a second one started at the same time as a back up for any failures.
 
what if the dog has no bark but you want it anyway because it has learned how to fetch you a beer from the fridge, do laundry, mow the yard, change the oil, and look pathetically cute when you walk it so that the girls all stop and say hi and flirt?


when we had turntables in the club we barely used them cause we were using denon's, when the turntables went we used the denon's untill the new version came along and they had skip protection for so long we could drum on the players with our fists for minutes and not hear a skip...

and then it was time to go digital all the way.

VDJ 3.1 and then 3.4

sync? ALWAYS! why? we only have a limited amount of time to mix our non-country sets and not having to hunt n nudge and do anything else that would prevent or slow us down has helped us to pack that dancefloor. you start losing the floor and you have a VERY small amount of time to recover and get to the next track to get them back dancing.

that sync button/function whatever you want to call it is there to make your job easier - use it or don't - but when you need it, USE IT!
 
tayla wrote :
@Charlie, amazes me how these "superstars" are total crap at recovering their show when something fails


I don't see how it's such a big deal.

Tiesto had a 20 second gap before playing another track. Not the end of the world.

The middle clip - has probably had audio dubbed over it by some Guetta hater.

Second Guetta clip - 12 seconds elapses before he uses the mic. Again, no biggie.

These things happen with CDs, and vinyl was potentially far worse - it could get clogged with dust, get bumped by someone, warp in the heat, hit a scratch and skip......all sorts of disasters.

Not so much of an issue with digital files. They either play or they don't.
 
Sorry, but that's the difference between me and you, you think it's not a biggie to have that length of delay, me, it's just not acceptable, you couldn't count to two before I'd have another track covering the silence.

And if you didn't know, I've been gigging since the mid seventies so I've done all the formats knowin' to man, but each to their own standards I suppose.
 
No, No, No This all is a very healthy conversation on the topic which brings into focus allot of varying degrees of opinions from experience DJ's which has a benefit to those with an open mind..

Look at the recording industry for example, you don't need what was once traditionally live musicians in the studio anymore to produce a hit song or album, which is what DJ's use and depend on to spin other peoples music, so would you also call that CHEATING, I’ll bet you could find allot of musicians that still have that opinion today too..

Things are evolving no matter which side of the argument you're on. New technologies will make it more easily obtainable to more people, which equal more $$ to those who are invested, but... what technology.... Can't do... is replace the "Creative Talent" of the “Mind”, and that is the bottom line, so have no fear if you have Talent...
 
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