So I've just spent about an hour setting up a mix for a podcast, and I ended up abandoning it, because of bugs/issues. I love VirtualDJ's ability to seperate stems, but honestly, tonight's experience makes me want to look at other systems because of lots of little bugs (quirks?) that stop VirtualDJ being reliable and predictable. Everyone's experience will be different but here's my latest gripes:
1) When first starting the software and going into and leaving sandbox mode causes a significant jump on main output/master track playing back - probably around 5 seconds? So before recording/playing live, I have to remember to turn on and off sandbox mode - This has ruined at least a few recordings for me.
2) If you're jumping around a lot of tracks, eventually VirtualDJ often seems to get confused which track is the master; and even after I specify manually which track is master, it continues to not track properly without explanation - This brings me onto my next point.
3) About 30% of the time, key matching/BPM matching on load often doesn't work and I'll have to manually invoke it with buttons I've set on my decks. I've got full BPM matching on so even if it's beyond 10%, it should still match; but doesn't.
4) I spent around 30 minutes tonight trying to manually tap-sync a track from the 80s which was all over the place - But the tap sync functionality really doesn't seem to be aware of variable BPMS. If you open the grid editor, and tap the "tap" button 8 times, it replaces all variable BPM sections. Any button clicks up to 8 is fine, and works as expected. The tap button outside the grid editor just seems to nuke all variable sections without question. Eventually I discovered the "Analyze BPM (Variable BPM)" option buried away in the grid edit window and this sorted my grid perfectly.
In my day job I'm a software developer specialising in user experience, and VirtualDJ is mostly okay, there's quite a lot I'd personally add if I was involved with the project; I find it's not particularly good at telling you *why* it's done something. Perhaps it needs a log window or something to tell you why it's made certain decisions; otherwise having it silently fail or do unexpected things in a live environment is not great.
I've used VirtualDJ for over a year, both live and on recordings and for the most part it hangs together. But tonight's issues have me seriously considering looking at the competition, and despite having manually scripted 200+ buttons on my setup; I'm in a position now where I have to question cutting my losses and switching solutions.
/rant over
1) When first starting the software and going into and leaving sandbox mode causes a significant jump on main output/master track playing back - probably around 5 seconds? So before recording/playing live, I have to remember to turn on and off sandbox mode - This has ruined at least a few recordings for me.
2) If you're jumping around a lot of tracks, eventually VirtualDJ often seems to get confused which track is the master; and even after I specify manually which track is master, it continues to not track properly without explanation - This brings me onto my next point.
3) About 30% of the time, key matching/BPM matching on load often doesn't work and I'll have to manually invoke it with buttons I've set on my decks. I've got full BPM matching on so even if it's beyond 10%, it should still match; but doesn't.
4) I spent around 30 minutes tonight trying to manually tap-sync a track from the 80s which was all over the place - But the tap sync functionality really doesn't seem to be aware of variable BPMS. If you open the grid editor, and tap the "tap" button 8 times, it replaces all variable BPM sections. Any button clicks up to 8 is fine, and works as expected. The tap button outside the grid editor just seems to nuke all variable sections without question. Eventually I discovered the "Analyze BPM (Variable BPM)" option buried away in the grid edit window and this sorted my grid perfectly.
In my day job I'm a software developer specialising in user experience, and VirtualDJ is mostly okay, there's quite a lot I'd personally add if I was involved with the project; I find it's not particularly good at telling you *why* it's done something. Perhaps it needs a log window or something to tell you why it's made certain decisions; otherwise having it silently fail or do unexpected things in a live environment is not great.
I've used VirtualDJ for over a year, both live and on recordings and for the most part it hangs together. But tonight's issues have me seriously considering looking at the competition, and despite having manually scripted 200+ buttons on my setup; I'm in a position now where I have to question cutting my losses and switching solutions.
/rant over
Inviato Mon 02 Oct 23 @ 10:59 pm
PhantomDeejay
user25137669 wrote :
1) When first starting the software and going into and leaving sandbox mode causes a significant jump on main output/master track playing back - probably around 5 seconds? So before recording/playing live, I have to remember to turn on and off sandbox mode - This has ruined at least a few recordings for me.
Are you sure you're using the correct audio setup for your gear ?
When you enter Sandbox mode, the MASTER output plays uninterrupted. Whatever you do on the track it's only heard on your headphones.
Then, when you exit Sandbox, the track just keeps playing, but now your actions will also start to be audible on master output.
So, perhaps you don't have a correct audio setup?
user25137669 wrote :
2) If you're jumping around a lot of tracks, eventually VirtualDJ often seems to get confused which track is the master; and even after I specify manually which track is master, it continues to not track properly without explanation - This brings me onto my next point.
1) If you MANUALLY set a deck as "master deck" then automatic master deck tracking stops. You can resume it with an action, but if you don't, then you have to keep telling the software which deck is master.
To be fair, in this case, you explicitly told the software to use one deck as master, therefore unless you tell it to resume automatic tracking, it will not switch master deck by it's own, as expected.
2) I don't know what you mean by "jumping around a lot of tracks", but as a rule of thumb, VirtualDJ sets as master deck the one with the highest volume. If both (or all) decks have the same volume then it keeps the current selection as it assumes that you're mixing IN songs and you have not yet completed mixing OUT the "old" deck. In this extreme case however, "master deck" should not matter, as more or less your tracks should have the same BPM and be beat matched / synced. Which means that bringing another deck on air and syncing it up, should not make a difference if it syncs with deck 1 or deck 3 or deck 4 (since all those decks are synced together)
user25137669 wrote :
3) About 30% of the time, key matching/BPM matching on load often doesn't work and I'll have to manually invoke it with buttons I've set on my decks. I've got full BPM matching on so even if it's beyond 10%, it should still match; but doesn't.
autoBPMMatch when set to "Always" is still limited by the current pitch range. So, if the track you're loading cannot reach the BPM of the master deck with the current pitch range, it will not sync automatically.
IF you have autoPitchRange setting enabled, then pressing SYNC will force a new pitch range, and the track will get synced. However this setting needs to be used carefully, because it's kind of easy to get your pitch range to extreme values.
user25137669 wrote :
I find it's not particularly good at telling you *why* it's done something. Perhaps it needs a log window or something to tell you why it's made certain decisions; otherwise having it silently fail or do unexpected things in a live environment is not great.
Each to his own opinion, but I would not say that it does unexpected things. Nor I think that a "log" would be useful in a DJ software.
As with any piece of software, if something doesn't behave as you think it should, that doesn't automatically means that it behaves unexpectedly. It could also mean that you haven't fully realized how it's supposed to work. That's why operation manuals (still) exist. And that's why support and forums also exist.
Also I consider myself an "extreme power user" of the software, and yet, I don't use more than 20 or so custom buttons.
So, I'm curious what you have scripted on those 200+ buttons.. I mean obviously you feel that you're missing some functionality and therefore you script it.. But 200+ functions ?
Inviato Mon 02 Oct 23 @ 11:38 pm
wildcountryclub
Been using it a whole year? I've been using it since 2006 in the same residency and still haven't learned everything there is to learn about it and it's constantly growing and changing so there's always more to learn.
They constantly take user feedback and even have a 'Wishes for New Features' page for us to ask for things, they improve and add new features far more often than any other and pretty much do it a damn sight better in my opinion. WITHOUT making people pay extra either.
Constructive criticism is not a bad thing - but 'I'm not happy and it's not the way I think it should be so I'm gonna complain to management and threaten to go elsewhere."?
meh.
We DO try to help other users understand what the software is and isn't capable of, how they can use it to their advantage, and how to find solutions to a lot of things that they might think are issues but really aren't. and yeah sometimes we're like the argumentative dysfunctional family, but the end goal is still the same - to keep playing and make so other's can too. gripes and all.
They constantly take user feedback and even have a 'Wishes for New Features' page for us to ask for things, they improve and add new features far more often than any other and pretty much do it a damn sight better in my opinion. WITHOUT making people pay extra either.
Constructive criticism is not a bad thing - but 'I'm not happy and it's not the way I think it should be so I'm gonna complain to management and threaten to go elsewhere."?
meh.
We DO try to help other users understand what the software is and isn't capable of, how they can use it to their advantage, and how to find solutions to a lot of things that they might think are issues but really aren't. and yeah sometimes we're like the argumentative dysfunctional family, but the end goal is still the same - to keep playing and make so other's can too. gripes and all.
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 2:37 am
@Wildcountryclub - I will clarify that I'm not "threatening to go elsewhere" that's just genuinely how I feel as a consumer. I don't believe in making ultimately meaningless threats I just wanted to explain my frustrations that make me want to look elsewhere. If other users of the software try to attack me personally for just posting my feedback, that makes me less inclined to stay with that software.
Let me further quantify my credentials; I'm a software engineer with 25+ years experience across 8 industries. Currently I help run the UK's biggest online doctor website specialising in user psychology and user experience; I'm also currently enrolled at Harvard to study neuroscience. So I personally have plenty of personal merit to back up my words, and if the PM of VirtualDJ want to reach out to me personally for advice, I'd be more than happy to work with VirtualDJ to improve the user experience.
Let me further quantify my credentials; I'm a software engineer with 25+ years experience across 8 industries. Currently I help run the UK's biggest online doctor website specialising in user psychology and user experience; I'm also currently enrolled at Harvard to study neuroscience. So I personally have plenty of personal merit to back up my words, and if the PM of VirtualDJ want to reach out to me personally for advice, I'd be more than happy to work with VirtualDJ to improve the user experience.
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 9:32 am
@phantomdeejay - Many thanks for taking time to reply in full - Granted some of this explanation should be coming from the software itself - But it's been immensely useful, thank you. I'll check out the things you've said, and report back :) You're an asset to the VirtualDJ community, and makes me want to stick with the software a bit more
The first issue with the track jumping, VirtualDJ themselves have said that it shouldn't be happening but because they can't reproduce the issue there's not much they can do. It's most likely because I'm using an external soundcard (Asus U5) that may have specific requirements regarding hardware buffer sizes. If it's helpful, I can upload a screen recording of it happening.
The master tracking; I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but didn't realise that once you specify a master track, then automatic tracking stops working - Something the software should have at least told me the first time I did it. Thanks for your explanation, and I'll look into scripting something that turns back on automatic tracking if I do manually hit the master button on my decks.
AutoBPMMatch - Perfect, thankyou. I'll check into this.
Re: unexpected behaviour
"if something doesn't behave as you think it should, that doesn't automatically means that it behaves unexpectedly." - I agree - it absolutely is subjective, and maybe because I come from the tech world not the DJ world, I expect different behaviours based on my past experience. But it would be nice if the software explained things a little more, otherwise it's just a blackbox and you have to refer to manuals to understand something - My view on manuals is that if you're having to refer to a manual then something isn't right in the UX. It's a very hardline view, but it's served me well in the UX world.
"So, I'm curious what you have scripted on those 200+ buttons.. I mean obviously you feel that you're missing some functionality and therefore you script it.. But 200+ functions ?"
I do have two 64 button launchpads plus some basic decks, used for running entire scripted shows - Including videos to projectors, story line parts, mic controls, so in terms of coverage, I probably use 90% of what VirtualDJ offers on buttons, mostly because I don't want to touch the laptop during a show - Most of my shows based around immersive experiences are 6 hours long with around 100 videos, including synchronised DMX lighting, laser control, live talent etc. Some of the buttons load different videos, set different inputs, some are as trivial as turning on/off different stems layers, and each button is also colour coded according to a meaning too!
So in my first event I had three international DJs look at my setup and they were genuinely blown away in it's scale but also capability; complexity is not something I shy away from! I think it's because being a software developer/neuroscientist I'm using to dealing with complexity (plus being autistic helps!); and I think ultimately because I have a tech background I can bring something entirely different to the clubbing scene in London :)
The first issue with the track jumping, VirtualDJ themselves have said that it shouldn't be happening but because they can't reproduce the issue there's not much they can do. It's most likely because I'm using an external soundcard (Asus U5) that may have specific requirements regarding hardware buffer sizes. If it's helpful, I can upload a screen recording of it happening.
The master tracking; I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but didn't realise that once you specify a master track, then automatic tracking stops working - Something the software should have at least told me the first time I did it. Thanks for your explanation, and I'll look into scripting something that turns back on automatic tracking if I do manually hit the master button on my decks.
AutoBPMMatch - Perfect, thankyou. I'll check into this.
Re: unexpected behaviour
"if something doesn't behave as you think it should, that doesn't automatically means that it behaves unexpectedly." - I agree - it absolutely is subjective, and maybe because I come from the tech world not the DJ world, I expect different behaviours based on my past experience. But it would be nice if the software explained things a little more, otherwise it's just a blackbox and you have to refer to manuals to understand something - My view on manuals is that if you're having to refer to a manual then something isn't right in the UX. It's a very hardline view, but it's served me well in the UX world.
"So, I'm curious what you have scripted on those 200+ buttons.. I mean obviously you feel that you're missing some functionality and therefore you script it.. But 200+ functions ?"
I do have two 64 button launchpads plus some basic decks, used for running entire scripted shows - Including videos to projectors, story line parts, mic controls, so in terms of coverage, I probably use 90% of what VirtualDJ offers on buttons, mostly because I don't want to touch the laptop during a show - Most of my shows based around immersive experiences are 6 hours long with around 100 videos, including synchronised DMX lighting, laser control, live talent etc. Some of the buttons load different videos, set different inputs, some are as trivial as turning on/off different stems layers, and each button is also colour coded according to a meaning too!
So in my first event I had three international DJs look at my setup and they were genuinely blown away in it's scale but also capability; complexity is not something I shy away from! I think it's because being a software developer/neuroscientist I'm using to dealing with complexity (plus being autistic helps!); and I think ultimately because I have a tech background I can bring something entirely different to the clubbing scene in London :)
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 9:56 am
PhantomDeejay
Generally speaking, we try to see the software through the eyes of a DJ, not the eyes of a programmer.
Because 99,9% of DJs are not programmers.
Sometimes it is HARD for us to do so, as we tend to revert back to the "programmer/engineer" logic, but most of us are also working DJs for this exact reason. Maybe sometimes we overdo it, but we try to keep a balance as best as we can.
Since I'm also a Civil/Survey/Land Engineer, I can only tell you that a system that's designed perfectly and works perfectly in the eyes of an Engineer, it's not user friendly at all! (At least for the average Joe..)
Because 99,9% of DJs are not programmers.
Sometimes it is HARD for us to do so, as we tend to revert back to the "programmer/engineer" logic, but most of us are also working DJs for this exact reason. Maybe sometimes we overdo it, but we try to keep a balance as best as we can.
Since I'm also a Civil/Survey/Land Engineer, I can only tell you that a system that's designed perfectly and works perfectly in the eyes of an Engineer, it's not user friendly at all! (At least for the average Joe..)
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 11:29 am
Dj Chachi
This discussion is way above my pay grade, like the say. But 200+ buttons scripted.. I don't see how can it be done In SDJ, TSP, Rekordbox, CrossDJ, PCDJ, etc... well maybe Mixx or Xwax.... Ableton?
That's what is so amazing about this software, all it has and all you can add. I my self have some scripts to make some custom functionalities and I'm not a programmer, I'm just a Tech that learn a little logic by using Excel spreadsheets VBA reading Help files, and also reading, Locodogs, Echo Papa, DjDAD and others.
I just can Imagine all the custom funtionalities that I would add if I knew programming.. just custome stuff that is appealing to me and my style of Dj'ing, nothing necessarily that is missing from the software.
That's what is so amazing about this software, all it has and all you can add. I my self have some scripts to make some custom functionalities and I'm not a programmer, I'm just a Tech that learn a little logic by using Excel spreadsheets VBA reading Help files, and also reading, Locodogs, Echo Papa, DjDAD and others.
I just can Imagine all the custom funtionalities that I would add if I knew programming.. just custome stuff that is appealing to me and my style of Dj'ing, nothing necessarily that is missing from the software.
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 12:39 pm
wildcountryclub
"...tonight's experience makes me want to look at other systems "
"... I'm in a position now where I have to question cutting my losses and switching solutions."
sure sounds like it from what you posted earlier,
and makes "makes me less inclined to stay with that software" just sounds like you can't take any one elses opinion but your own.
and that's why a LOT of people these days go without questions answered or solutions to issues: their world view is challenged so they throw a tantrum and go full on 'karen'
and it's not a 'personal attack', it's an observation on your comments - because that's exactly what it sounds like.
i'm just a run of the mill guy playing music for a living, don't have to be a programmer, scientist, or any other thing to measure up to as long as my customers are happy and dancing. To me that's all that has everr mattered and VirtualDJ helps me get that job done and has done so more reliably than turntables, cd decks, or even the VHS we used to have to use for video.
feel free to ignore anything i say if it's something you disagree with.
"... I'm in a position now where I have to question cutting my losses and switching solutions."
sure sounds like it from what you posted earlier,
and makes "makes me less inclined to stay with that software" just sounds like you can't take any one elses opinion but your own.
and that's why a LOT of people these days go without questions answered or solutions to issues: their world view is challenged so they throw a tantrum and go full on 'karen'
and it's not a 'personal attack', it's an observation on your comments - because that's exactly what it sounds like.
i'm just a run of the mill guy playing music for a living, don't have to be a programmer, scientist, or any other thing to measure up to as long as my customers are happy and dancing. To me that's all that has everr mattered and VirtualDJ helps me get that job done and has done so more reliably than turntables, cd decks, or even the VHS we used to have to use for video.
feel free to ignore anything i say if it's something you disagree with.
Inviato Tue 03 Oct 23 @ 2:34 pm
@WILDCOUNTRYCLUB Maybe it's a cultural thing, but looking at other solutions isn't a threat - It's a sensible commercial decision - if I wanted to make a threat, I'd have no means to do so, I'm sure VirtualDJ will miss my whole financial commitment of £19 a month, but also, if I wanted to make a threat, I'd have been much more specific in my wording (being a autist, scientist and programmer means that I will absolutely be direct when I need to me).
You've hopefully by now read the scale of my productions - It takes around 4-5 months of planning and about $6,000 of investment to put on one of my events, so if something isn't working reliably or predictably, then I'm inclined to replace the malfunctioning thing ASAP to avoid losing money, and that includes VirtualDJ.
Like I said in my original post, others have varying experiences of the software depending on what they're doing.
You've hopefully by now read the scale of my productions - It takes around 4-5 months of planning and about $6,000 of investment to put on one of my events, so if something isn't working reliably or predictably, then I'm inclined to replace the malfunctioning thing ASAP to avoid losing money, and that includes VirtualDJ.
Like I said in my original post, others have varying experiences of the software depending on what they're doing.
Inviato Wed 04 Oct 23 @ 12:49 am
@phantomdeejay - Thanks for your help earlier, I checked my scripts for setting master, and found the automaster mode that was being turned off - And added it to my scripts; and it works exactly as you said. So thanks for that.
I also looked into the AutoBPMMatch - Tweaking the related settings appears to have fixed that as well.
But with those tweaks I managed to get through an hour long live record without issues, so thankyou!
The sandbox weirdness on first play - I might just have to live with.
But found another "bug" - I'm sure in earlier versions of VirtualDJ if I started a second track and exited sandbox mode, it would stop, but twice tonight I exited sandbox mode and it left the track running, unfortunately recording the output to master even though the crossfader was all the way over to the master track. What are other people's experiences of this?
Here's my podcast episode I recorded if you're interested; it's a bit clunky (I'm not used to mixing 80s music, that's for sure!), but it's certainly not the worst thing I've done!
https://soundcloud.com/soenone/sinewave-radio-040-an-80s-megamix
I also looked into the AutoBPMMatch - Tweaking the related settings appears to have fixed that as well.
But with those tweaks I managed to get through an hour long live record without issues, so thankyou!
The sandbox weirdness on first play - I might just have to live with.
But found another "bug" - I'm sure in earlier versions of VirtualDJ if I started a second track and exited sandbox mode, it would stop, but twice tonight I exited sandbox mode and it left the track running, unfortunately recording the output to master even though the crossfader was all the way over to the master track. What are other people's experiences of this?
Here's my podcast episode I recorded if you're interested; it's a bit clunky (I'm not used to mixing 80s music, that's for sure!), but it's certainly not the worst thing I've done!
https://soundcloud.com/soenone/sinewave-radio-040-an-80s-megamix
Inviato Wed 04 Oct 23 @ 12:54 am
Had another look at my settings and actually I may have to eat some humble pie on that last bug - Yes, it's a bug, but VirtualDJ isn't really at fault. My soundcard has both an amped headphone output and 6 analogue channels - And currently I have my headphone plugged into the amp. The issue with this, is that the ASIO driver changes the channel names and channel mapping when plugged into this port; so the previous mapping for 6 channel output is no longer valid; and I'm asking VirtualDJ to playback on four channels that effectively no longer exist until I replug my headphones into the 'normal' 6 channel audio outputs.
Having not done this, I think VirtualDJ tries to "best guess" the set up, and the playback works, but with quirks because the output device isn't working as expected.
Switching my connections around seems to have fixed the last bug I mentioned - Exiting sandbox mode now automatically stops any track started whilst sandbox mode is active.
I still weirdly get buffer-related jumps when first entering/exiting sandbox mode for the first time. Odd.
Just out of curiosity, what hardware do people use for playback with a main and separate headphone output?
Having not done this, I think VirtualDJ tries to "best guess" the set up, and the playback works, but with quirks because the output device isn't working as expected.
Switching my connections around seems to have fixed the last bug I mentioned - Exiting sandbox mode now automatically stops any track started whilst sandbox mode is active.
I still weirdly get buffer-related jumps when first entering/exiting sandbox mode for the first time. Odd.
Just out of curiosity, what hardware do people use for playback with a main and separate headphone output?
Inviato Wed 04 Oct 23 @ 1:10 am
PhantomDeejay
Most people use controllers with built in sound interfaces.
It's not common these days to use external audio interfaces to DJ with.
And when DJ's end up using external interfaces, they tend to use them with external analog mixers.
Which means that they don't have a "master" and a "headphones" output, but separate deck outputs instead.
PS: Sandbox BTW require a "Master+Headphones" audio setup to work properly.
Any other strange audio setup may produce glitches. That's because during "sandbox" the program sends the audio uninterrupted on the "master" channel, and everything you do is sent only on "headphones" channel.
If you mix that setup to include separate deck outputs, then VirtualDJ doesn't really know what to do with those outputs when you use sandbox. That's the reason that usually sandbox is not available on a "separate decks" audio setup.
Finally, all "mid-range" and above controllers from the last 5-6 years have decent enough sound interfaces to be used on any typical club sound system. Higher tiers of course have even better sound, but typically you would not be able to understand it on a club/tour environment unless you're an audio engineer.
That's why there's no real need for DJs anymore to use extra external sound interfaces like Motu, RME, e.t.c. that used to be a thing in the past..
It's not common these days to use external audio interfaces to DJ with.
And when DJ's end up using external interfaces, they tend to use them with external analog mixers.
Which means that they don't have a "master" and a "headphones" output, but separate deck outputs instead.
PS: Sandbox BTW require a "Master+Headphones" audio setup to work properly.
Any other strange audio setup may produce glitches. That's because during "sandbox" the program sends the audio uninterrupted on the "master" channel, and everything you do is sent only on "headphones" channel.
If you mix that setup to include separate deck outputs, then VirtualDJ doesn't really know what to do with those outputs when you use sandbox. That's the reason that usually sandbox is not available on a "separate decks" audio setup.
Finally, all "mid-range" and above controllers from the last 5-6 years have decent enough sound interfaces to be used on any typical club sound system. Higher tiers of course have even better sound, but typically you would not be able to understand it on a club/tour environment unless you're an audio engineer.
That's why there's no real need for DJs anymore to use extra external sound interfaces like Motu, RME, e.t.c. that used to be a thing in the past..
Inviato Wed 04 Oct 23 @ 9:38 am